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Welcome back to the show. I'm here with Mike Brunt sometimes known as the CF whisperer. And he has been doing cold fusion since version one. And he's an expert at tuning cold fusion web service. And he's done it for many large organizations around the world. And what you may not know about Mike, he's also a music composer, and a musician and a painter, and a permaculture. Gardner, I guess, the right phrases for
he's a world traveler. He grew up in England and being in Los Angeles, New Zealand, now he's in Eugene, Oregon. So welcome, Mike. Yes, thank you. And thanks for George family meal. You know, a low in Britain when you say having me all I mean, she's pulling from the lake, but that's another story. No, no, we won't do too much like pulling, I'm sure. Right. We are going to be talking about cold fusion and the blockchain revolution. So I'm sure many people listening have heard about it coin and various other blockchain projects. But how can we interact with them using cold fusion? And you know, what does that why true that matter to call cold fusion developers and why cold fusion is the best language to do this in
and some of the blockchain projects that Mike is currently working on, we'll talk about as well as using the cold fusion API manager to make things easier for all this. And if we get time we will wrap a bit about blockchain versus the GDPR PR, European approach to privacy. I think he might have some controversial views there, Mike
Um, and we'll also if we have time talk about blockchain evolution and how that compares to the web development evolution that cold fusion was part of back around late 90s or 2000. So let's start off with just in case anyone listening doesn't know what the blockchain is. Can you just succinctly tell us what what is the blockchain yeah
Mike Brunt 2:06
so I'll start by saying when I shot it to become involved I've started to become involved when if cereal came out it didn't really feel the second biggest name in the blockchain cryptocurrency world
Bitcoin still out there in front even know people criticize criticized it for me to eternity in one way or another. And I'd like to dispel some of those mix too. But so Bitcoin was the first use of blockchain technology. And another another term for blockchain technology, which is probably more accurate nowadays is distributed ledger technology or the LT
and the reason that it's probably more succinct is because the the the change that down blockchains and I'll talk about one of those two as we're going along. But anyway, the first implementation of what we now know is blockchain technology which Bitcoin Bitcoin came out in 2009, I think it was as an answer to the financial crisis that and debacle happened in 2008. And it was expressly written as a as a value exchange mechanism is decentralized and working in a peer to peer manner. That's really the core of what Bitcoin was, if you ever read the white paper, such Satoshi or eco motors, white paper, it's very explicit about that uses a side comment. What's happened to Bitcoin, sadly, is that it's become a speculation mechanism. And that was never the intention It was never really never the intention for every US dollar value or any other currency value but that's what's happened to it and you know, that's a whole subject in its own right but
show Bitcoin was your first and all you could use blockchain for that time it was Bitcoin so nobody really knew that blockchain existed to be honest with you. Then came the Syrian war theory them did, they started, it just came to me as I'm talking, they started a revolution in exactly the same way that the alleged with confusion
because they opened up what was a relatively difficult world to do things in and make it much easier. So the route of Ethereum, which is the first time I became aware of blockchain is you can write x or that's as a cold for block for the blockchain Before that, he couldn't really do that. Unless you're, you know, maybe some PhDs tomorrow, you know, top flight computer scientists have done it but you know, average developers he couldn't do that. So it's really opened up the blockchain world Milanese anything else had an open the floodgates for it. And I started to get involved. And I'll I'll tell you, I started to get involved with the time you mentioned permaculture, which is another one of my worlds. And at the time, I was looking for a value exchange mechanism for permaculture as a universal concept to worldwide concept because permaculture is pretty much everywhere I'm sure you find it where you are. Mahalo. Whatever wherever you go. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I think traditional farming is kind of a bit more permit, you know, doesn't use chemical.
Mike Brunt 5:27
Yeah. pesticides. Why having Yeah, have
Mike Brunt 5:31
a good not to go off it can use whatever good friend whose mother lives in, in Peru then. And it's Peruvian. So when, you know, that's another national story. You might, you know, like this. She brought some seeds with it. I Stan, she came to America and Luther, neither of which are typically what girl here. But I'm growing in the greenhouse at the moment. But that's another that's another story. So yeah, so I thought I was looking been around for a value exchange mechanism so that we could, quite frankly. So we get beyond governments using permaculture.
That was my plan because I see permaculture is a very gentle revolution.
And when you look around at some of the people running some of the countries and I won't get into politics, we need we need something gentle
through Anyway, after after its hearing came. And then we started to see that long after lots of all the blockchain project beginning to blossom. And very, very quickly, blockchain became a big both word and it's become exactly what happened to the web which is overhyped,
that's not to say, it doesn't abuse those, it has many uses. But, you know, it's, it's, it's just in a state of complete high, but the moment and it's made a situation where exists today, worse, and that situation is a lack of developers, you know,
and then, you know, it was like a sponge, soaking up, you know, doing want to be a blockchain development. So, it just made that situation worse. And then, of course, you know, know that aside where the h1 b problem where we run out of h1 visa in early 2018, right through the end of 2019. So,
lots lots of bargaining going on at the moment
in sorry about I did that. Did he come through on the shine? None? No, no, I know what you're saying. So I'll go. Sorry. So yeah, I'll apologize. somebody tried to call me on Skype. So yeah, anyway, and like I said, lots of hype going on, you know, this, this guy, as far as I can see, way into the future will be like a developers
so excited typical situation. And now, I'll tell you why. How am I can relate to that I'm working on to blockchain projects.
And in both cases, we just, we just can't find I mean, in one case, there's a company in India that were contracted and they didn't deliver in town town several times, you know, and then just just generally, finding developers is difficult. In fact, you may, you may have to break down and just learn how to do it yourself. Mike? Yeah, well, the thing is that I do like to, if I'm talking about some down do like to be able to look at it an audit is
so, you know, basically, I am becoming familiar with it. You know, there's something else you know, that I really wanted to touch on, which is try to sneak to work
usually the car wash on Skype and it cuts into my audio so, yeah,
yeah, it is an issue with them about what I will talk talk about something here which is what languages are used for block blockchain projects.
blockchain itself I believe is is very big coin itself is c++ or the wife
Do you know that there's no there's a Google language gets us quite a bit it's called go I'll go line
now I'm beginning to see Java use more and more
the recommended a shameless plug in that show out of the familiar languages are there so it's it's not going to be tremendously unfamiliar territory
the big The biggest difference really what blockchain is, it's it's actually more like a network level protocol and do not know a language because we're still moving date we're still moving data around you know we still storing data so my luck's and they also took john shortly we're still playing around with ones and zeros so it's just a different way of dealing with all those things and and I took some part of it before which is distributed ledger technology you know, think about what ledgers were before before computers that gives you a good idea well but it really is just a store of you know data basically of transactions and most of the most of them if not all of them are immutable which means nothing can be deleted and an exact classic example of that if you go looking for it you'll see the famous Bitcoin transaction which was large picture he might have been too large pictures for 10,000 Bitcoin that still there you can still see him will have you were gonna say something? MacFarlane yeah I
was just gonna dig down onto that you know the blockchain is distributed ledger ledger technology so you know what traditionally banks and governments and other large organizations have done is had centralized Ledger's row, if you have, if you if you do transactions with your bank with you, you know, you you write a check, or you withdraw from an ATM, or you receive your, you know, payments via direct debit, or whatever, all of those go into an enormous central database. Either it's running Oracle or goodness knows what might be DB to, you know, my custom written database, you know, that isn't even a whatever. And so, what these blockchains are doing that they're performing the same function of
store accurately transactions and not let the old transactions be, you know, corrupted
by evil people, but they're doing it distributed potentially over thousands or millions of machines or servers. Yeah,
and there is no centralized server that could be either turned off if someone didn't like what, you know, if someone doesn't like Bitcoin, they can't it can't be turned off. No, no. And it's a bit similar to the situation. And if you remember Napster,
yeah. Which was a music sharing service and they had a centralized server and then, you know, I think the US government said, well, we're not having this because that would like copyright violation. So they shut down the centralized server, server server and there when the service and that of course, was replaced by a lot of peer to peer services, right. There is no centralized server. So there's an echo of blockchain. Back to music. Peer to Peer.
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, align wire and all those things. I mean, yeah, that's, you know, that's why there's a lot, it's a very interesting situation. All, you said is true. You know, definitely disintermediation is that is the wrong word which describes what what blockchain and all the change can do which is to remove the need for 10 generalization now one of the day is it this is where Bitcoin has gone off the rails you know because there are exchanges which is where you buy and sell Bitcoin in essence for all the currencies so there that's introduced the slide slide on and to centralization do it
you know so that's that's most of the problems that have happened with Bitcoin with people losing money or being ripped off a satin in an exchange not not you know not knowing Bitcoin itself
well or they someone left their private key lying around well someone snagged it you know that that to me but there's a little version of that which is people lose your hard drive and the luge Olympic going yeah I know someone who that happened to they have their coin back when bitcoins Road Less than $1 each know I always doesn't really matter they didn't pay attention ratchet it
flies slightly yeah yeah
yeah queens or roughly whatever 7000
yeah like seven times nothing last mile high you people often ask me well you know that this funny on Don't you regret that you didn't buy any? I said no, I don't, you know, technology. You know,
there's too much suffering goes on in this world for people wishing the day or done something you know, it's not worth going down that road I don't think you know, I'm happy enough in my life. But that but that's another story and but I do want I do want to go back to a basic to basic concepts of blockchain you've touched on as well the most important single concept is peer to peer
not really the core of what blockchain what proper blockchain projects should be
the second classification is ready to receive occasions is there are two kinds of
blockchain or distributed ledger technologies this permission and permission life so if Bitcoin unalterable as a permission less well that means anybody can join anybody can be put become part of the blockchain, they don't have to be approved
that he you know, they were built so that the self governing basically
and that's why you've got this concept of, you know, many different systems in and they've all got to agree or number of little got to agree until so that's that's permission less permission and blockchains, which is where the real girls is going on at the moment. Because it's because that's very interesting to business
as a blockchain which is which you have to you have to be invited into a be allowed into, and I mentioned before the hyper ledger project, I think I can remember I was talking to you before I mentioned it, I think, yeah, before we hit Record Raw hyper
ledger is an open source blockchain, right. Looking at Yeah, there's
a grouping of blockchain in the actual fight, you know, dimension, some of them the sawtooth, this indeed is
this is a number of them anyway, eight states it's a Linux Foundation and you know, that definitely worthy of looking at because that's a very stable You know, there's some real I read something today, said 70%. This is another subject, 70% of Icos or fraudulent and an Ico is an initial coin offering.
Well, no, we don't stand before the call, which is EOS EOS rich, rich full billion dollars in an Ico and about two weeks later, they were in all sorts of technical trouble,
which will feed for result anyway, that's a different subject. So that but that's a reflection of the hype. But just to repeat myself, hyper ledger, which is a, you know, the Linux Foundation, they're all open source projects you can download, we want to start playing around with blockchain projects, you can go to any of their projects and download code I've already done not about a couple of the morning email app. So, you know,
it's a much more a typical open source, you know, community people are any to help each other, you know, and so on and so forth. And, and the person that's running that the hyper ledger project he was he's the one that really managed Apache as a web server project and then as a an open source project. Joe
So do you have to apply to join one of these hyper ledger blockchains or
what do you wouldn't be you would if it was you know, let's say you're working for a company and they decided to use one of the blockchains you know, then you would have to be approved to go in there but if you just want to download the code and play around with it, that is really simple just go that fill in a form and download the code and you know, install it and you know, it's it's just doing that just installing it more than anything else is really informative it gives you a really good idea what blockchains are and what what you can do with them
so what what what do you see the advantage of having using permissions blockchain
because a lot of businesses don't want permission Atlas construction inside the business you know, basically I mean, he almost as soon as I was I was around because like I was very similar to this but it's very similar to when confusion I was around really when hyper ledger got started more or less and they only had one project in the roster that time which had been donated by IBM
and then you know so I got interested in and then as I as I watch the Andrew that's into got 13 Now that was so it grew very quickly because there was a very great interest from from the business community in particular to also financial institutions which really part of the business community anyway
you know there's just a lot of interest so if I was to recommend so mantle from a development standpoint to look at blockchain type projects I am repeating myself I pledge is a good wanting to look at because you can get like a say you get right to the code and so ought to be around with a lot of companies moving towards using it so I actually run a stack of interest I roam the Eugene hyper ledger Meetup group
you know, for those reasons and you know I want to bring because a lot of people are comfortable in Eugene Oregon apps to be a hotbed of there's a lot of investment going into technology, and there's talk of it becoming the second Silicon Valley that will happen or not, but
that's what being says it will be the blockchain Valley right when
you add like he did with the blockchain Valley Yeah, that's why I started that group it's nice to be in it's exciting you know, I mean, yeah, I hope I hope I won't get sent you for saying this. But I'm 70 years old I should have retired five years ago I've no bloody intention retiring because it's doing side and it's filled with phone. You know, it's a when, when I I'll use this analogy because it's a true one. When I first stumbled upon blockchain, it was like when I first stumbled upon cold fusion,
the all sorts of light went off in my head, you know, and, you know, the story one of the first is, you know, make blog is Chef whisper one of the first blog post I did is a story of how I got into cold fusion
which which remains interesting anywhere but but it's very simple I mean the analogies between blockchain on the web
tremendously Shame on you know, because the web became overhyped you know we also that if I To be quite honest cold fusion itself got inflated to a ridiculous speaker a bother bother hi the surrender the web and then of course all of a sudden the.com bubble burst and I was actually I was actually in new in Newton Massachusetts which is where allies headquarters were eventually they had the day at that point they had 600 employees beautiful building and I was actually in there working for all at the time when they were all sat around this terrible and so we have an announcement to make we're being a quiet and they said we're just going to tell you that it could cause for the wind result the name begins with an M so could you know everybody soul,
but cozy with Macromedia. But you know that that story as its own aside to for anybody wanting to look at the Jeremy ladders as a blog blog post somewhere or an interview where he speaks about Microsoft trying to buy or lease making overtures years ago and couldn't do what he says in his interview. He didn't JJ we're having too much fall and chill. But then Microsoft went out and bought a company in Hawaii and that's where a rose ASP came from. Yes,
I mean, it's kind of a bit of a if Microsoft had is kind of interesting thought experiment. What where would you be if Microsoft had bought it? You know, you I guess you can look at where s ASP is now. Well, SP doesn't really exist but.net still exists right
I don't know if cold fusion as we know it would still be around or where there's
of the saying goes we could write a book Couldn't we I mean our remember I was with a liar when one too long about this. But then when did when they acquired live software, which is where Jeremy came from Russia assault looking at Jaron and I thought Hang on a minute is this there's a lot of the same things would call fusion does except it's in Java. Well, of course, they Baltic with a sort of porting cold fusion to Java, which they eventually did. But you know, it's a little bit extra to get back on subject. The first Java based cold fusion engine was blue dragon,
it was there before before JIRA. So, you know,
as a part of this wonderful story.
So what I'll do now is get let's get into more specific about cold fusion and blockchain and where that might go. So the first thing is, all all blockchains I have come across are all change. As I mentioned, the seminar blockchains have an API and that I have that API usually rest based, so cold fusion, and it's just called cold fusion. And it's all right. Can, you know, as we all know, can correspond via rest interfaces, you know,
if we go a step in terms of money durability, and securing API manager, which came out with cold fusion 2016 gives us a way to really get granular about how we
consume, produce, manage and secure REST API generally. And really the API sis situation I said, system and situation is quite revolutionary ways because it's what's enabling a lot of now that we've got beyond soap soap wasn't a particularly performant
API version, you know, rest is much better. And of course, it you know, it's been used across all sorts of industries to cross communicate.
So that's one where the confusion is of great relevant for my opinion, to blockchain project. The other reason he is this, you know, the blockchains of their change blockchains distributed ledger technologies better as I have to, to contain, manage and give up data. I mean, that's what I mentioned earlier on, it's what's in there is data transactions, all sorts of any deep identification, dated anything, anything that you would normally see in a database, in actual fact is typically in blockchain, but it is is a dirty secret or secret or clean, sacred,
almost all data in the world is still in databases. It's not in blockchains, you know, so, there's still a lot of that there's this concept of what's called Oracle's and it's not Oracle. The database only knows we're talking databases Oracle's release things
say between blockchain projects on on legacy data and cold fusion is absolutely beautifully positioned to fill that role the very least because he's so it's still to this day it's still Nordling we can defy anybody to tell me a little language which makes manipulation of cycle and easier
you know it and and minute you know working with API's
yeah exactly yeah exactly it's you know, I would I will just divert a little bit off the subject for a minute but it is about cold fusion and it's interesting and good news so Louis Mohan on Broadway and the team there or two are doing they're doing such a wonderful job for CFL on cold fusion you know what Come on box I have a couple of clients now using command box and I had not been exposed to it before I'm taking time to learn it and it's pretty revolutionary in terms of how easy it is to spin up instances and many many other things move I would I would say it's beyond revolutionary
I mean you just put in the command and then you've got a new instance of any version of cold fusion or Lucy CFL yeah yes no no installing it or other messing around and and and also of course as you know it's a command line interpreter for you so
yeah no it's brilliant I you know I know the good news you may know this already McConnell but the good news is now officially supported by Adobe they you know if you believe if you've got an Adobe support plan then they will support command box while not fairly that's about that I learned that not he confirmed two three weeks ago so you know that's that's good news you know and and and not to not to not to miss another accolade here I mean I am beyond grateful to Adobe for the support they've they've given to call fusion and they continue to get the confusion
you know they they are the only company after a laugh or accept la who actually have a dedicated cold fusion conference in the company supporting it come talking about that only I mean you you you know you you are great conference was talking about you know, Macromedia never had a daddy he had a cold fusion conference you know know at DEF DEF CON Brian was what they called it, which was all were development languages. So, you're talking about CF summit, which we'll talk about more at the end of the episode. Right. My but yeah, yeah, I appreciate to, they'll be anywhere for that. And there's such a great team to I mean, it we've got the Adobe team and artists between them, we should we should be blazing trails, like nobody, nobody knows, you know,
HP are blazing trail. Well, we
are. But the thing is, what, what what gets them a bit is one of one of cold fusion strengths is also used often as a criticism and the fact it's been around so long, that's not the bloody weakness. You know, it you know,
there's a certain I think, among developers this, yeah, I've seen this, I've seen so many development teams, because I have to PDF six or seven clients at any one time. So I've seen so many development teams and you've added criticism for the mindset, is it fashion? Well, fashion or religion, one of the other, you know, and not either of them related to fashion or religion related to software. And, and, you know, cold fusion has had difficulty being fashionable, and there's no good reason for that. And, and, you know, there's a, there's a famous
blog piece that I was involved in writing, which was, you know, about the Indy 500 and the fighters, somebody It's a long story with trouble when we had to move the server for the Indy 503 weeks before the Indy 500 was occurring. And that's it. That's a dreadful punishment for service that particular weekend. And thanks, thanks to the flexibility of cold fusion, and we were able to do we were able to get to get it done in time, if you've been any other language would probably still been get trying to get it done next year. And I can give you I'll give you an exact example. I we had a healthcare client that we're using cold fusion and they were your religion, somebody came in and said, Oh, going to move that The Dark Knight and will be will be done in work. So what's your timeline? Well, we won't need you in nine months time. Okay, two and a half years later, they're still trying to move to.net, you know. So one little bit of caution I would give to anybody listening to this think many, many, many times before you move the language moved to a different language, because there's typically not enough benefit in it. And certainly moving away golf users. And I can tell you a little bit of benefit in it.
Oh, I'd say this, let is the opposite of benefit. Usually, you end up with something that's harder to code in isn't as flexible
and, you know, doesn't have as many things built into it, you know, I have to add a bunch of third party things. And, okay, all the functionality you had in cold fusion. So, and you know, we're here on the CF Live podcast, you know, we're also helping getting out the word that cold fusion is the modern life bang, 90 modern life the most secure I read, it's the most secure web development
platform out there. You know, people are raving about Ruby on Rails or HP or whatever, but they have more hacks and way more hacks you know, like 10 times more
so you know, I think cold fusion actually is doing a great job if I'm writing a book on one I think cold fusion you know really is the best choice is the most alive language so maybe I'll put some quotes from you in the mic
more than welcome your wish you know that would be an honor you know and yeah I mean definitely I will let me share this I felt getting cold fusion in 1996 I'm still in it in in 2018 and I'm not going anywhere else and I'm not retiring a federated I'm not giving up you know and there's still plenty of work for me going on so you know let's get let's get real and you know get with it get with the program you know particularly again I want to I want to emphasize this to anybody out there that isn't using save on our cold fusion take a look at what Come on box is doing like Mikhail said you can be up and running in you know the drop of the hat really it's an amazing thing and you know you've got all this capability
your fingertips show anyway
I went over the tangent to a certain extent there I mean certainly
going back to blockchain which is well you know one of the things is this is about it's not you know I can't tell you this it is hyped but it's not going away you know I can tell you that it because it it does have real benefits it's just you know one way real it's been shaders making a good deal of money and and it is and has been and you know the will there will be a I believe there will be a shakeout what people talk about Bitcoin going away bitcoins not going to go away
because it's it works you know because at any speed is up now beginning to see being taken by a lot more
places if I talk about took john not even a one of the projects I'm working on I'll name it gets US dollar
and it basically what it is is Yolanda set backed cryptocurrency
and millions of hectares of land pledge to them by indigenous peoples around the world so that they're, you know, they will have they do have
assets, backing them opening salon and assets and their goal is to bring you know, bring some good good ways of living back to to the world you know, get away from the more the mode Soren aspects of capitalism. But the reason I mentioned them is because they are there in a grouping with the Bitcoin is one of them
Litecoin there's a few others during a grouping within the building a bridge between cryptocurrency isn't what we call fiat currency, you know, ordinary currency, so you will eventually you won't have to go to exchanges anymore and they'll be fluid it will be very fluid to use either use other cryptocurrency or of here,
yeah, I'm sure they'll be in in the smartphones for the future. There'll be some clever app that just works with thousands of currencies and you know, you just have to worry about it. Yeah, exactly. You won't have to worry about it. Just Just like, you know, as I understand it, Google has like a translator thing. I think it's kind of still maybe a bit prototype. But basically, you can real time translate between, you know, 50 or 100 different languages. So,
yeah, maybe I can tell you kind of tell you a little story on that. Because I was I knew somebody was working on that project. It's an AI, it's an AI project, artificial intelligence. And then you did, they switched over from, you know, the typical way that we're doing it for this to a either and I've been through all the switchover Cigna life But anyway, doing nervous but the new the new to the show show completely AI based, there's no human intervention or suction. And yeah, you're right. It's pretty, it's amazing. I like you. I've got friends around and about to speak different languages in different alphabets. And it's pretty and that's another story I certainly wanted. The other project that I'm working on, which is called Did you feel labs that that's, that's in that's in the more money you know, the word more ways and more important place, but it's a pleasure don't exist. So they're in there in the biofuels business, but they're going to be their
goal in life is to make biofuel from landfill waste,
which just became a big deal because China stop taking long, you know, long landfill waste from Europe and the USA and oldest in also asked me a big day. So that's 11, but the blockchain based project Come on, they both they both exciting and they're always the both revolutionary, you know, so,
but the blockchain won't go away, you know, the baby already. I mean, I think I read the other day, there's about 1200 crypto currencies don't exist anymore, you know, so,
that shake is already shutting down.
Now, on both these projects. It sounds like a bot blockchains being used in order to, you know, keep track of which piece of band or which, you know,
whatever, bucket full of trash, you know, who did it come from, right? Where's it going? And so, it's like a database of what's going on, but it's distributed and it you can't, you know, you can't falsify it.
Exactly, yeah, it basically it will be used on the second project Did you see a lot of supply chain management and that sort of thing you know, so yeah,
they're both really if we open that idea up my really many projects that cold fusion developers are working on the could be a database aspects the might be better done in blockchain, you know, if you if you had a real estate application where you wanted to, like, you know, record who, you know, the chain of selling the house currently that's all done in a centralized database at the county right? Yeah, it could be done in a in a blockchain okay. You were saying Supply Chain Management Yeah, we'll be doing it just to take a point on on real estate it will be done in a blockchain I have a company in in town here in Eugene caller ID x i think it x broker anyway, they are like an aggregator of real estate agents in the United States and the National Association of Realtors American grouping are actually working on a blockchain project now for exact ratio. So
really, for everyone listening, whatever industry you're in, whether it's real estate, or pharmaceuticals or governments or whatever, chances are, your industry is going to be revolutionized by the blockchain, changing how things are done, and possibly putting quite a few large corporations out of business if they don't change what they're doing. Yeah, I mean, you're totally right. And then there's another revolution going on which the Did you have a project coming in Boulder and it's called industry 4.0. And that, that what's happening there's the Internet of Things which has been around for quite a while, in fact, is now being embraced very heavily by industry. So we're going to have sensors on you know, on devices on machines, you know, and and data blockchain will be used to collate and verify and maintain data from Lowes and you know, and under something called something else that people may want to look up, which is very interesting, something called digital twin.
So what what that means is that before a piece of machinery is is built, it's built digitally.
And then once it's been built digitally, then the and verified then the itself will be built but then the digital version of it and the real version of it stay connected to the lifetime of that piece of equipment
and you store that data in the blockchain so it couldn't be messed you know messed with bright and it would be available 21 and wanted to inspect it Yes, exactly. Which is a big deal as well because you've got all the standard agents that want to know You know, you're not doing dangerous dangerous thing was not nearly what you very important so that so you could have the certificate to say this machine is safe or whatever it is being certified for actually put into the blockchain. So anyone you know, you wouldn't have to trust someone when you bought the machine second hand, you know, when you buy a car these days, you're not quite sure what the history is, I mean, they have those services out there that are supposed to tell you that were there any accidents with the car and so on. But if if that whole thing was in the blockchain, you could just you know, tell anywhere, any car being a more done, ya
know, you're exactly right. One of the sample projects that hyper ledger has a there is a journey that's all it took an application which tracks the life of a car from the order point so to the delivery through to the usage due to the resale all the things you just mentioned.
And you could even take that further back in time and further forward back in time by seeing where all the components that made this car where did they come from and who made them and where they you know, did they pass quality assurance okay and you know if there was like a lemon component in there you you'd be able to figure it out or you know the whole record process currently when you have a recall on an automobile because of the problem with one of the components they like mail millions of letters out supposed to and it's up to you as the owner to go in but with if that data was in the blockchain you'd be able to use your car if it had an AI in it would say oh yeah I need to drive myself to the shop and get this component dealt with you know yeah and and then just to finish that thought on the other end when the car is finished its useful life and it's going to the wrecking yard you could track all the components for reading you know, those that could be reused or recycled, all of that could be tracked absolutely and you know, I mean to me
that you know, you know, I'm altruistic producer an accent Metallica and one of the reasons another reason I got very interested in blockchain is because I think it's I think it's a force for good you know you know you know and cryptocurrency to I mean you know just just to touch on that for a minute because there's a lot of you know drug dealers are using it and I mean current deals have been laundering money for bloody years you know before cryptocurrency ever even thought about I I
heard that drug dealers are quite able to use, you know, banks to launch
and back didn't HSBC get caught a few years back. So yeah, like and that was like, far bigger than the whole size of the crypto Mark Yeah.
Yeah. Absolutely McCarron and you know, one other thing I want to give you surrounding me out but it's a different subject. So you get this this palapa to use an English term which means announcers sort of
you get this nonsense that they gave you bought Bitcoin miners together using the same amount to like 50 or more electricity than Ireland will say we need to set that aside like this the bloody back soon as well for that the banking system is using immense amounts of energy to you know, it's not like Bitcoin issues and all this energy and back to using now you know, that that's a that's a classic basic propaganda from the incumbent financial systems to try and discredit cryptocurrencies, well here's the good news the failing miserably you know adjusted to jump something else that you said touched on earlier and it's very important there was an incident a few months ago why China that most of the most of the big I'm on in the world was going on in China and they the government tried to crack down on it you know try to crack down on the mining so what happened is the majority of the miners move from China to Canada
so as we go forward, every cameras are comfortable trying to squash something today will cryptocurrencies This was several Shepherd least two countries, you embrace it, you know,
some of the some countries, you know, like they're a bit there are can tones in Switzerland? Definitely very pro crypto. I feel the name of the one but let's famous that's like a valley there were a lot of crypto. Yeah,
I can't remember the name. Yeah.
And then, of course, the countries that have cheap electricity, you know, can I assume Canada has cheap electricity from hydro electric? Right. hydro.
But, you know, Iceland is also big into this, and they're big into privacy to start with. So, and, you know, openness of data and what have you. So there's a lot of crypto mining that happens there. And then I was recently in Georgia and the
I guess it's the Ural mountains around the name of the mountains is there. But anyway, they have a lot of hydroelectric, right? And so, there's a whole FinTech thing there that's going on it's amazing well what's
interesting you should mention that part of the world because one of the countries which really embracing you know from top to bottom you can change Estonia
mm hmm right it all eat the whole he residency and yet and making the whole of government more automated and transparent.
Exactly, exactly that. Yeah, they are, they're very nama many ways to have nothing, but it sounds like a very interesting place. But
yeah, so. So, yeah, I saw their minister, the former CTO, like CTO of the whole government. And he gave a talk at a conference I was at about their vision for how, like, citizens would be able to access any of their own data, but the stuff that was private, other people couldn't get to, right was, it was kind of hardwired into your national ID that kind of, you know, gave the private key to all that. So, yeah, yeah. And, and in addition, they wanted to harden it against other countries doing, you know, highest cyber attacks on it, because if it was Estonia, I think Estonia did have a cyber attack a few years ago which supposedly came from Russia because they you know, Russia got ticked off for them right nasty about Russia
so that they wanted this to be with this distributed kind of technology it's a lot harder to do a cyber attack
yeah most definitely a lot harder and you know because there's a lot more for you just simple stuff like there's a lot more cryptography I mean cryptocurrency cricket country baked into the system you know
and do just to address that room and it because some people come back Mustang on me
is hearing about over 30,000 from smart contracts
that the smart contract incidentally go back to a point you made is what what helps to cut out a lot of little line because smart contract allows you to negotiate a contract in software without having some you know like a escrow that thing in the middle anyway. So people often back in may come back at me and say, I but if you just had a lot of smart contracts, compromise, the smart contract wasn't the problem. It was it was so subpar development, the problem was your development problem, not but not a software development problem, not that smart contract problem. So, you know,
it's it's an interesting time and, you know, machine when he put together machine learning and AI you saw to approach the place where software can write software
and, you know, lumping about rocking software for those of us who donate, you know, what we create, it can be very exciting, right, in the software itself is bloody toil, trouble, boredom, and many other things, you know, so, you know, it's not, you know, for those I mean, I'm guessing everybody's going to watch this all written software. But for those who haven't written software, it's it's pretty audio of
so well, I think the interesting idea there is not only can you have a eyes writing software, or right, you know, they could be writing these smart contracts. And the next step after that is that they, you know, are doing the trading or the, the business, they're running the business on the smart contracts, right? Because it's computer computer run, you know, when humans do a business, it could take them days or months to do a new business business initiative, right? Think what it will be when a computer is doing that, and they can be in milliseconds or less, they can switch the whole thing and come up with a new strategy.
Well, well, exactly. And you know, anybody that's not true, you know, today, so, they say, any particular
occupation, but anybody that's had US Attorney's for anything, will know what the bills can get light, right. So if you have a nice there already are a eyes I think they may be based on that IBM initiative photo, watch the, what IBM Watson did. I think they they came up with a spin off of that, that they did one spin off that does healthcare stuff that diagnosis but I think they did illegal one. And anyway, I read a thing that said some big corporation, they had had this legal thing do 300,000 as of legal work, can you imagine what that would have? Had it built out by a lawyer?
Well, no, no, no, no Data Domain? No, you're right. And, you know, another place AI and machine learning the, you know, big data is impacting is you just took it in a ways medicine because what what's being discovered now is the AI can can diagnose radiology images better than radiologists, you know, more more accurately. So, you know, a lot of changing and, you know, there's, there's lots of worries about about what's what's going to happen with artificial intelligence is you're going to put a lot of people like to work well, the answer is yes. But it's but that's happened before and we usually move on to do something else, which is typically speaking more person. So I have great optimism about the future. And, you know, and if somebody designs an AI that can tune gel, the service better the mail,
okay, we have Top Fuel
that might take quite a bit of machine learning.
Well, you know, it's not easy. I mean, even great products like fusion reactor, you know, it's still I mean, I can usually this is not a plug for me, I promise you, but I can usually diagnose something with that a fusion reactor, see if you
don't need them, but they are great product staff. And even then there's still problems with Java sure that, you know, people so I problems with that. And there's a reason for I cannot say that refund name because it's important to people to know. So Java JVM, Java virtual machines could run on anything from a set top box or even something smaller to a fight. I've seen people running it ruin confusion on Raspberry Pi's, for instance. So, so Jay a JVM. It comes out of Oracle supposedly optimize the room other on the road use as an example a Raspberry Pi, all these gigantic Java servers that run the financial systems of the world and, you know, yeah, okay. I've can JVM bitumen effectively for all those different environments. He called an efficient and, you know, it gets even more Modi because the there are at least three or four different garbage collectors, you know, Cheryl is parallel is garbage first, this constant concurrent Mark sweep. So not only are we go maybe 180 different arguments you can apply to a JVM, you've got four, four, maybe five different garbage collector. So how in heaven's name can you distributed JVM or JDK that set for each environment? The answer is she can. It's impossible. So all JVM tuning
and the difference is remarkable.
Oh, it's amazing, can go from really slow and frequently crashing multiple times a day to running flawlessly without having to bump up the memory. Yeah, on the server. Because that's often what people do they like, Oh, well, it's running out of memory and crashing, let me just bump it up to 32 gigs of RAM, you know, but that doesn't really solve the underlying issue
from damage. It makes it worse because, you know, there's more people to inspect. When when it's a big it's a big game, you know, so I'm not saying it doesn't help, but it's not what I saw. That's
a look at what's going on, you know, that this is applause I suppose. But just in case. So I'm going to repeat myself every JVM niche cheering. And I do offer a flat fee for tuning for JVM, you know, she's only see if whisper website
you know, I'm not the only one who's reasonable doing that Shelley at heart is great, too. And, and, and, to a lesser extent, the light doesn't do it all again, brought water or two C's. Very good.
Well, that that is amazing about JVM tuning and I'm sure there's gonna be lots of advances with AI and other things in the future. But it might be quite a few years off because of the complexities. But let's, let's move on now, Mike, to looking at blockchain versus the GDPR and and what is GDPR for anyone who hasn't heard from all the hype about that was back may? Yeah, well, you know, the funny thing about that is not many people have heard about it before me, or you know, I mean, obviously, you and I both came from you, or by people call me about it. But GDP are sounds for general data protection
regulation. regulation. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Yeah. So it actually It actually started life a few years ago me May I think it was May 26, 2018
is when he came into force,
I'm sure a lot of people just to give an example of what it costs a lot of people that are going to watch this got loads of emails saying, you know, this isn't about spurred it spurred on by GDPR. And basically just to cut to the chase it what it what GDPR says is, you as a human being, all you use an entity own your own data, it is not data that can be used by anybody else for anything, unless you get permission for it to be used like that. Another another provision is if you go to a company and you say to them, have you got data on me, and they say, yes, you can say I want you to remove it and prove to me as a you removed it, or I'd like a copy of it, see what you have without certainly be like copy of it. So what what that's going on the stroke of a pen stroke, and many pens and keys and all the sort of things is really invalidated the business model of Google, Facebook, Twitter to a certain extent, and many others, because those companies exist on being able to use our data without our Express Express knowledge for anything, they want to make money from it.
And there was a ruling in actual fact that I think it was either today or yesterday Google just fine. $5 billion
for things relating to GDPR and the Berkeley problem can I pay that fine in Bitcoin on?
Well, that's a good question. I'll find out
if you're gonna say something about fiat currency earlier, you know, that's controversial, so I don't need to say but then
yeah, so basically, we don't have censorship on the CFO Live podcast Mike so when I say whatever you need say
oh, I'll just say this quickly. So let's say there are two shaded this body somewhere maybe cheers cancel or some shower or whatever they say we want we want to bring in a value exchange system we don't have one and we want to make things a bit more fluid so we're going to consider to two possibilities and you've got to present them to be a new you to fill one comes in with fiat currency is a proposal and neither comes in with cryptocurrency your proposal and the body looks at them and says, Go if you currently you don't have you don't have any there's no there's no value. You don't have a you know, a backed by anything because most money nowadays there's a lot of storage and it can be counterfeited and well, exactly. Yeah, it's a so people who tell me I took so much before people who say to me, I don't like cryptocurrency, because it can be used by we talked about it before. It can be used by drug dealers and incremental owned and or serve as we said, both of us have been going on for years and socialize with fiat currency. But so, you know, eventually cryptocurrency will, you know, will replace fiat currency, it's an inevitability and you know it, we were in a transition period at the moment. So, but anyway, I went off on a tangent there a little bit.
So we were talking about GDPR. So one of the one of the discussion puncher came up around where people started to realize what GDPR is unreal. But what I said a minute ago, you have the right to to do to set my college to get a copy of your day to you ever I have you dare to remove you requested. So let's look at what blockchain is. blockchain is an immutable record
where things can be deleted. So what do we do that we've got GDPR which says you can have you dare to delete it if you're a question of blockchain is you can't delete it.
So the answer The answer is something called self sovereign identity.
And in not in not a sort of a closet blockchain where you, you retain your data, your data is with you and you via blockchain, share it as you wish when requested. And you only share what you want to share. You don't share everything. And a good example of that is, you know, I like I like to drink beer, you know, but I don't want you at no point do you want any more? But when I did, I have to show my driver's license. So what was the driver's license show here? Anyway, it shows you date of birth, it shows which is what they're looking for. It shows where you live, it shows whether you want to be an organ donor,
the idea the idea behind self sovereign sovereign identity issue, only share what is required, you don't share anything else. So
it would be like you had a permanent marker, and you'd covered up the bits of your driver license, like your date of birth, you didn't want to reveal or the URL your address or whatever, yeah,
when you hand it over. Yeah. Oh, you Yes.
So and then it is an example of this, that doctor I, oh, you know,
social services out there where you put all your data into them, and then they share it out to other platforms, with your permission? Well, yeah, with your permission, that's the thing. And the other thing that shell for an identity gives us the ability to do is is we profit from our data, you know, we can we can, we personally can profit from our data, if we decide to share, it can get, you know, get compensated as a result. So you can imagine what's going on in, you know, as we speak, you could say, in the likes of Google and Facebook control, and he doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what they say. What I mean by that is, if they say to you, it's invalid for them to say to you, we have the right to use your data, if you don't check this box
that that's not valid anymore. It's not it's not a good enough, you know, choice. And so when God GDP or any kick in this over a month ago, let's remember. So there's gonna be a lot to knock on effects. So for the likes of mentioned, again, Google and Facebook, and so on, they're only Shang say they only you can only do two things, they can either comply with it or not comply with video, no, get fined and find your bake. And the only way to can come what it is to change the whole mechanism or have two different completely different code bases, one for GDPR multiple non GDPR. Another thing that's really important about GDPR doesn't it doesn't just apply to European companies. It applies to any company that retains data on the European entity, whatever they may be, you know,
and so it's basically it's, in essence, a worldwide regular regulation in many ways it will spread and will bring benefits and other things going to bring benefits colors. So if you want to look at them, there's there's two entities we ought to look at the shelf sovereign identity. There's an entity called sovereign but it's spelled sov Rn,
and within hyper ledger project called indie ind. Why, like in like the Indy 500, and these are adults to probably object refers to self sovereign identity. And that's going to be a very, very important need going forward to it's worth, it's worth investigating.
So that's, that's the GDPR bit and, you know, and I'll repeat myself, again, come back a little bit too cold fusion, you know, cold fusion has an incredible opportunity to be whatever want to call it, the intermediary, the glue, whatever it takes between blockchain and distributed ledger technologies on and, you know, standard or legacy data. I just, I just got a thing by the way, it's funny, I'm saying, Chapman, we're doing things in their little I, I get Bitcoin news, because I find it to be quite an objective, you know, bellwether of what's going on and it shows here, number of VLT companies explodes. So you know,
as I said several times during this and that doesn't mean TNT. In other words, DLC block change, I mean, it's, it's growing so fast. And, you know, for any developers wanting to look at something else, it's worth looking at. And like I said, don't, don't be frightened because it's not a complete new language. It's not the language most of the time, it's different. It's the almost like the protocol. And that'd be a good word for it's a protocol and I just moved around the managers different.
So yeah, I think I'd second that the cold fusion is, you know, confusions the best digital glue out there, you know, lose together different API's different database system projects, and perhaps, fortunately, that it wasn't bought out by Microsoft to I'm sure they've done amazing and great things with it. But it wouldn't have been so open to like working with Oracle, or working with other people's API's? I think
so. Yeah. The vision scares may not have been that. Yeah,
but so let's, let's wrap up by by just talking about why you're proud to use cold fusion after all these years of using it.
Well, it is a pragmatic reason really, I, you know, I live in a nice little two bedroom coffee tree in Eugene. I practice permaculture. I have a lovely life and that's all thanks to cold fusion. Excel fusion, literally change them. I mean, it again, I wrote about it literally changed my life totally, you know,
ah, what, how, when I wasn't in computer I wasn't I'm not a computer, you know, science person at all levels or a business manager in who had a need and I find cold fusion approach cold fusion fan me So, you know, for that reason, it's still you know, again, I repeated another another thing I can you want time I have at least six or seven clients. So, cold fusion, I hate these words, because the ridiculous Kofi is not dead or dying. It's alive and kicking. And as you've said, many towns and new families, you know, it's getting Mosul mean, he, when you've got a company like Adobe backing it that Adobe is not a philanthropic organization, you know, they make money, and then they do a good job. And that's that's why they still supporting cold fusion
was talking to Tribeca Roychowdhury, the GM of cold fusion and the other products there are under him. And, you know, he was saying that the sales year on year are increasing, you know, so
it's more than it's not going away. It's actually growing again, of course, you know, if you're not into the paid version of confusion, that's the open source Lucy? Cold Fusion. So yeah, you know, all those people are used to complain that, Oh, well, ASP is free and cold fusion, you have to pay pay for the server license, you know, that's there's an option now, if you if you're into open source to have a totally open source stack and get cold fusion in it.
delivery and I'll address address well, more or less, I mean, not to the point that the most expensive and I'll emphasize the most expensive cost in any it software project is labor.
So the longer it takes to do something, the more costly you the true I mean, you've what we're talking maybe, I don't know, 1500 dollars to buy a standard version of cold fusion 1500 dollars is is gone in a couple of days, if something takes longer, you know, so the that's That to me is a disingenuous argument, you know, that it's, you know, and again, people are still buying it. I mean, why people are only your Adobe support and it people are buying it
well, why, you know, why do people buy any tool instead of trying to make it themselves or doing it by hand? You know, yes, it saves time and money
and it's probably more safe as well in the case of web languages more secure. Yeah, no, yeah, sure. You could roll it up self or use some other language but the most secure language out there is cold fusion
Yeah, definitely. And you know,
that's very important always so yeah, so I mean I don't want to answer your question well absolutely yeah so let's just take this a step further and asked what would it take to make cold fusion even more alive this year
well that's that's a very good question i mean you know way I mean it
probably it probably a Becker I'll go to log on to the fourth year about about Adobe one thing that I think they probably don't do as well as it is recorded community support independent communities developer communities you know we stopped user groups that were you know move Muslim for I keep the now today The other thing that I think really did catapult cold fusion to what it got to a city he's been Sham blocks I mean a good deal of sound blockchain that you know that that really that was really great for me because it helped me to learn a lot you know and that's again that's why I like
they don't still have some collapse I thought I thought I solos and still out there whether they have no way somewhere,
right? Well, maybe the hidden away somewhere, I I haven't come across them. So you know, that is, that's great. You know, because that's
really important. saying, God it like, like I said about hyper ledger, there are some blocks you can download for free for free, you know, and, and, you know, one of the new things in the not really sample apps, but they're more like modules. But the whole fortune box thing where you can just download some code to do some no functionality that someone else wrote. Yeah, and just plug it into your to your application. So that that's another cool initiative. That that's what another one from all this solution, right?
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Which is, but it's open to everyone. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Now what, you know, I met Lewis before just about the time that he was starting to do call box. And, and the one thing that blew my mind at that time, and you shouldn't, it's a great lesson for all of us is new. And I were involved in other frameworks, as, you know, fuse box being more but the thing about call boxes that Louis are to be documentation and then then folded up with code, not the other way around. And the reason that call box and the box products are doing so well, in my opinion, is because he worked it worked his heart out producing good documentation on a juul huh. Yeah,
yeah, that's a definitely a good approach from creating software to create the documentation and the tests as well. Rod, I created a code Yeah, the test. So let me just ask the final question here. Because I know you spoke a CF summit in Las Vegas last year. And you're I believe you're speaking this year. And it goes all the speakers announced. And I'm pretty sure I saw your photo up there.
Yeah. Before Yeah.
So tell us what you enjoyed a CF summit last year. And, and you know why you think a CFO should go to that?
Well, I think, you know, what I enjoyed about I've been to all of them. And what I enjoyed about all of them is I kept seeing different faces every year people I've never met before, which contributes, I'm a CF great grandfather is, you know, literally, and he's quite something I think every year, the different faces like I said, you know, and it's really it's really uplifting and, you know, I spoke to a lot of people are, too, you're never been to confusion even before
and then, you know, yeah, just that just making I mean, what, what I would trace and there's been three to me, there's been three phases of engineering teams in confusion news original team, which was a lie team, who were great pioneers, you know, then there's another team that often gets left by the wayside, which shouldn't, which was re Macromedia team, and and Amanda was spearheading that with your Sean Caulfield and Sean, Sean actually, an esteemed rescued cold fusion because when cold fusion went from five to six version that's when it went to Java and loot the original version called fusion Nemec six was ability disaster so Sean and his team basically rewrote it from the ground no and in six dot one was a different version and the rest is history so that was a great team and then the current team which is largely based out of India should should absolutely great people and you get to make the move go to events and you know yeah and Alicia
Alicia because she's she's been a soul and a supporter of confusion I don't I don't want to write on this and maybe she will hear this importantly right but i think i think a follows or one of the rotary jumbo jack who No, no, Okay, thanks. I asked
her that one myself because that there's a whole for you know, the was the fortune fortune right. Or maybe I'm confused using a john divorce jack, the author and journalist. Yeah, exactly. Know what maybe. Maybe they are related. I was thinking of the guy who invented the keyboard. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm sorry. So yeah, we'll have to ask about on the show.
We're also in Las Vegas. Well, he was a you know, just for the sake of if anybody did get to read anybody didn't I should say get to read them all. Listen to me, was it was it was great. He was really good, you know, it equitable. More. Most of us are writers and speakers at that time, I think. Yeah,
great. Well, sounds exciting. So I'll look forward to seeing you at CF summit in Las Vegas. I think it's October 1, the third this year, right, usually not the October timeframe.
And if folks want to find you online, one of the best ways to do that might show she had which broke bloggers been around for a while. And I started
a blog specifically in the JVM. Java project, which is called Java man, man like memory. So Java man, and that's, you know, it's totally devoted to Java. Those articles tend to be a bit a bit more entertaining to look at, you know,
there's more, there's more graphics and amateur chef was much more text based. But you know, what's interesting about both of them,
I've had a couple of hiccups through the hiccups of them not being there, you know, anyway, the point is one they were they were really quick because I've always thought if I'm going out there typing, shooting and load balancing load testing. Sean, I want to make my own shot or quick so I'll put a lot of effort into that.
Well, great. Well, thanks so much for being on the podcast today. My Yeah, I
know it's been great. Thank you very much for inviting me again, I really appreciate it.