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Speaker 1: 00:01 Welcome back to the show. I'm here with Kai Koeneke and Michi hat and we're going to talk about everything, CF cam. So it's the amazing CFML conference in Europe coming up in October. And we're going to look at where it is, some history on it and what does it cover and all the exciting speakers and topics. So let's get going. So welcome guys. Hi, welcome. So those people who, who haven't come across CF camp, which is hard to believe because it's been going for years now, how many years has it been going? Meanwhile we have the 10 year anniversary. Wow. Um, yeah, it's, it's, I'm already really long time. Are you doing something special for the 10 year anniversary or oh, well, um, we did all the years and I figure we'll be a again, no, you're really good at great show. Uh, what we are, uh, happy to have for this year again is the famous, uh, cold Marsters in the evening, which is so old.
Speaker 1: 01:05 Always a fantastic show. And this year we really have a fantastic lineup of speakers and talks. So we'll be really, again, a fantastic event, I guess. Well that's great. So basically CF camp is a cold fusion conference. You know, originally focused on, Lucy now covers Adobe ColdFusion as well. Is that right? Or have I misunderstood what it is? So, um, it started, it started with the idea of bringing a conference to Europe. And, uh, we first talked to Lucy about that. Um, this was, oh yeah, 10 years ago. And we realized that, um, it's not about Lucy, it's about really CFML. And this includes, uh, Adobe, which means for the first year, uh, we, I think we haven't had Adobe as a sponsor for this conference. This was a one day event with, um, I think about 30 or 40 people. And from the next year on, um, Toby and Lucy has been a part of the sea CF camp.
Speaker 1: 02:13 And it was really, we have the focus on CF camp is not talking about the product, it's talking about a language. So this means we have a lot of things that are running in both worlds and we have a lot of things that are around CFML. It's not only about coding or CFML stuff, it's about tools and techniques. You are, you need to use around CFML. So how about monitoring? How about lock file analysis and security and stuff like this? Cool. So is Lucy bigger and in Europe than in the u s do you think Chi or would personally say
Speaker 2: 03:00 yes. Um, and I mean we don't really have any actual numbers because obviously, um, Adobe is not providing specific information on how many licenses they sell in various regions or at all. But from a pure community observation point of view, anecdotally I would say Lucy is very popular in the German market in the UK, in central Europe in general. I would also say Lucy is more prevalent in Australia, New Zealand than Adobe ColdFusion. Um, and to me it seems like that in the u s it's more or less vice versa. It seems to me that in the u s cold fusion is used by a lot of large companies, corporates, fortune 500 us federal government, et Cetera, et cetera. So that seems to be one of the focus areas where Adobe ColdFusion is much bigger than Lucy. And for whatever reason, Lucy apparently never took off that much. In the u s market, I think. Well, it's interesting. So speaking of Lucien and Adobe ColdFusion, how does CF cam compared to the Adobe CF summit that's happening just a few weeks earlier?
Speaker 3: 04:20 Um, the main difference between CF summit and a CF campus that I think we have, um, uh, why not spread kind of of, of talks and, and techniques. So while see summit is focusing on, um, fewer CFML stuff and things about code box and how do we program and what is new when, uh, the latest Adobe version and so on. We are trying to cover other things too. So for example, we have talks about um, developing, um, android applications about security, about UI and UX, um, and stuff like this. So I think it's more for the developers itself, um, in a way of getting information and um, about, okay, what's, what's this around CFML and what can I use for specific things?
Speaker 2: 05:19 So there's an interesting German saying basically that is basically in German it's called like, Ooh, in telecom shown, so literally means efficients later. It means something like you have to look beyond the area of your plate. So you need to look at other things to be, to keep up to date and to get inspiration and to learn supplementary technologies. And you can't just really stick with one technology and one platform nowadays from, from all point of view. And that's makes it's common sense, right? Like even if you are like a core web developer using on the back end at some point it's quite likely that you will need to do some javascript coding for example. So you should know something about that or you will have built an API, um, that he used by a mobile app. So you need to at least know the basics of API development and that tons of, you know, topics like that that are very important to be taught to people and be explained to people.
Speaker 3: 06:21 That makes a lot of sense. I'm going to have to ask you to spell that thing in the show notes cause there's no way I can write a German word with [inaudible]
Speaker 2: 06:28 the run. Okay.
Speaker 3: 06:30 But while you're doing that, why, where is CF cam this year? So this year, this year, we are again at the fantastic Marriott hotel in the Freisan next to the Munich airport. Um, so we, um, we are here for the second year. Uh, we, uh, we're looking for a bigger venue since the, the airport conference venue was just too small. So we, we hit the limits and number of attendees. And so we were looking for, um, for a bigger venue and we found the really fantastic Maria toto and it will be there again this year. So that's very convenient for people coming in from other places. Yes, totally. And it was, it was one thing we absolutely wanted to have is the venue and the hotel rooms at the same place because this was one of the problems we had at the venue at the airport because it was just the conference venue. And if you wanted to, um, bring stuff to your hotel room or change your shirt or whatever, it was just not possible until you can just say, okay, hey, give me five minutes. I'm going up to my room and coming back and um, shortly. So, uh, this is a real big improvement for the attendings because it makes it much, much more comfortable for them. And then, sorry, go ahead, Kai.
Speaker 2: 08:00 Okay. Um, the other thing worthwhile mentioning is phrasing is a really nice little historic city. It's basically the next city to the airport and they have stuff like, you know, an old cathedral, they have a huge culture around via brewing. Funny enough. So basically Germany's top one, the best university for beer brewing is in freising. So there are lots of pups and like lots of cultural things you can do just besides attending the conference as well.
Speaker 3: 08:30 Cool. So is CF camp only for German cfs or no, no, no, definitely not. So of course the most people are coming from, um, from Germany or let's say Europe because it's a much more easier to travel to, unique from from example, Italy or, or the UK instead of going to the United States, or we have a lot of people coming from a completely across the balls. So we have people coming from India, we have people coming from New Zealand, we have people coming from the u s um, so Australia, yes. Um, so there are a lot of, um, countries and languages, um, at the, at the conference and that's a quite a lot of fun. So of course the main language is English, but, um, well I guess if you want to talk to someone in Australia, dialect some be a problem.
Speaker 1: 09:29 All right, well, cool. And for those who've never flown to Munich, it's a very large airport. It's very easy to get flights to Munich from anywhere in the world. It is. Yes. I, I'd compare it to Chicago O'Hare airport. Is that kind of size?
Speaker 2: 09:44 Yeah, it's basically the number two hop off a Frankfurt in Germany, I think.
Speaker 1: 09:47 Yeah. So w w when is CFA mommy? I'm excited to when it's happening. A CF camp,
Speaker 3: 09:55 it's on a 17th and 18th of October, so exactly in one month. We have the days before some pre-conference program. So there is a, the preside con about the pre-site CMS platform. There is um, some trainings from, uh, the code box, uh, auto solutions for about code box and test box. Uh, we also have a very interesting half-day talks, um, and training about, uh, logstash from, uh, the elastic plastic surgery group. We have, um, another one about getting into Linux as a development platform. And this is quite interesting. So if you are thinking about let's get rid of my windows equipment and there get into, uh, Linux, the sole business, your chance, um, to see what you need to do.
Speaker 2: 10:50 Yeah. So the, the pre-conference training is a general Linux introduction. It's not specifically for the or to get into development, but if you've never tried Linux and you just want to get a feeling for how that works and like, you know, trying Linux on a desktop computer, then this is a really cool thing to attend for half a day and just get like an initial feeling for if that could work for you or not
Speaker 1: 11:16 on those preconference classes of 49 euros extra for that half day or full day. Yes. It's just about covering the food for, uh, in the room. That's it. So, well that's a deal particularly for preside. And what did the folks who don't know what preside is? What is preside?
Speaker 3: 11:34 Uh, well presiders, uh, is a really interesting, um, application framework where you can easily build up your own applications. Um, it has, uh, a kind management system included. It has a lot of features to create stuff around that. So if you, if you need, um, some internal things with website users and uh, mechanism for uh, for benefits or stuff like that, you can really easily do that. And uh, it's meanwhile it is, it is used. Um, that's for, for conduct management system, uh, for, for just showing the website, it's more about um, handling the data and the background. So we have a lot of applications where we are just, um, having internal applications that do not use the CMS but you are doing all your CRM stuff on and stuff like that. And preside.
Speaker 2: 12:31 The interesting thing with preside as well as its built on top of code box and it only runs on Lucy because the preside team basically they have at some point made a decision to say we want to use certain language features and certain optimizations that basically work fine on Lucy, but we can't do that cross platform support or cross server support, um, you know, dealing with two slightly different languages. So they decided to go with Lucy
Speaker 1: 13:08 and it's open source and it's open source. Yes, that's right. And, and I'm interviewed the uh, creators of preside and I think it has some quite interesting, um, you know, the way it works when you're using it as a developer is
Speaker 3: 13:21 pretty cool. Yeah. It's really simple to use. If you need a new developer, I'm working on precise, you're not going to teach him. See if America, you're just going to teach them the preside, uh, API, this API and commands. So that's really, really simple thing to get into. Cool.
Speaker 1: 13:40 And then you said, you mentioned autists is running some commercial classes for the two days prior to CF camp. Yes. Let's tell us a bit more about those.
Speaker 3: 13:50 Well, um, oracle solutions is doing this for four years meanwhile, so they're giving, uh, every year, uh, some trainings in front of cfm about code box get into code box code books, professionals stuff. So for this year they have a cold box from API, from hero to superhero, and they have a, they have a test box at training for two days. And this is really quite interesting and the very, very good way to get this training and not to fly in the u s if you're based in somewhere here in Europe. So I can't imagine why someone in Europe wouldn't want to fly to the u s well, well basically the thing I think is, um, it's really a long trip and if you have to decide to go to the u s a have the jet lag and, and really if you're going from Europe to the through the u s you have to stay there for at least a week to, to see something in the u s if you're a believer, if you're coming from, from Zurich, from Switzerland to Unix. So, hey, okay, well I'm going to here again next week. So that's, that's not a big deal.
Speaker 1: 15:00 Cool. So what for the main CF camp event, what, what comes in in the ticket if you buy that?
Speaker 3: 15:08 So if you are going to buy the ticket, you get two days of the conference, including really basically everything over the day. So includes all the meals, all the, uh, all the drinks. We have fresh press, orange tools all over the day. We have a special machine or orange juice machine where they just put in, throw in the fresh orange dress and you're pretty glass into it and get fresh pressed orange juice. That was a really a highlight the last year. Um, yeah. Fantastic food all over the day.
Speaker 2: 15:45 Proper coffee, which is really important. My coffee. That's right.
Speaker 1: 15:49 That's right. Some slower on American coffee.
Speaker 2: 15:52 No, it's a slur against shelter, coffee in general, and it's, the ticket
Speaker 3: 15:59 includes the, the evening show, uh, the Codemasters and dinner, including a fantastic German beer, uh, from the local brewery. Uh, so yeah, absolutely a deal.
Speaker 2: 16:15 Yeah. And the confidence is usually worth it as well. So, for example, last year people got, um, one of those little keys. I don't know if you know that little security tokens, like something like this. Basically you could use them to log into websites or log into your computer instead of using passwords. So they're almost like a really cool thing that was just worth, I don't know how much they are. 40, 30, 40 euros by itself. And the previous year we all had got like a raspberry pie mini I think. So they have been like various really cool Schwag things and the goody bag.
Speaker 1: 16:57 Now do you get the recordings of the sessions or,
Speaker 3: 17:01 yes, we do. So last year we had this, the first time we have a professional company doing the recordings of all sessions and every attendee will get the sessions afterwards for free and a, so if you're, if you say bad luck. So the two sessions I'm interested in are in the parallel tracks. So that's not a big thing because you just can grab the video and see what he missed.
Speaker 1: 17:26 That's great. That sounds, uh, very good. A, and also, even if you attend a session, sometimes you don't always, you know, remember every single piece from the session we assume so, uh, great to be able to refer to that. So how many people came last year? Last year we had about 100 for QR,
Speaker 3: 17:45 50 people all over, including the speakers and sniff around it. And, um, we are growing from year to year. So when I think back when we started with the 30 or 40 people that's already mentioned for one day, um, meanwhile, uh, 150 people for two days, it's really good. Really good for us. While it's over a month away, how many people have signed up already? Currently we have about a 120 people, I think. So we're growing to hit the number we had last year, so I'm still missing some, usually the suspects. And so, um, I think we were getting any, almost the same, at least the same number of attendings. So let's just talk about who's speaking. And maybe Chi, you can tell us hat cause you're involved in the committee that picks who speaks. So you will the old PAF or um, speak a selector.
Speaker 2: 18:45 Yeah. I wouldn't say oh powerful speaker selector, but yeah, we had, we had like a, an open process for the first time for ZF chem this year. So, um, one of the drivers behind that was that I think, you know, we all believe in the idea of to grow a conference and to make it, you know, interesting for new people and for people from all sorts of walks of life. You need to kind of present a panel of speakers that is, that represents the diversity that you want. And if you want to increase diversity, the most common thing or the most easiest thing to do is let's run a proper call for paper and anonymize it as much as possible so that everyone who selects talks can do that in the most possible, unbiased way. So, and that's what we try to basically do for the CF chem for the first time.
Speaker 2: 19:49 Um, and I would personally say that while it wasn't perfect, it was really successful as, as a minimum. And I'm pretty sure Michelle would agree with me on that. Basically you have like an incredibly diverse panel of speakers and we have significant amounts of new speakers that haven't popped up at a CF camp before or that haven't popped up in the ColdFusion CFML related speaker community at all before. And that's really interesting, right? Because I think having that will in future years for future iterations then hopefully attract new people, attract other speakers, attract new speakers and you know, increase the deal that diversity and the different range of topics and people we want to speak even more. So what we did is we used the tool tool called paper cone. It's basically an online based solution to manage call for papers for events. Um, put a call for papers out there and gave everyone a chance to submit a talk or multiple talks that actually will change the next year because we had one person and I'm not naming them, um, who submitted 17 talks and that was a bit too much from that one person from my point of view.
Speaker 2: 21:14 So next year we will have some limits and like everyone can submit like four or five talks and then it's a cuddle for something like that. Um, but that being said, after we got all the talks, what we basically did among the people in the committee was to anonymously rate the talks. So basically only on the description and the title of the talk, we would go through the list of talks, read all the papers, suggestions and say, yeah, I like that. Um, I like that a lot or I don't like that it doesn't fit the conference, Yada, Yada, Yada. So we would basically do that on a one to five rating. And we had a target number of talks we want in mind that was around 20 to 25 and basically at the end of the call for papers when everything was submitted, everything was raided.
Speaker 2: 22:06 Then at some stage to cure rate the panel and to curate the talks, we d anonymized the sessions. And that is really important at some point because you know, you might end up having 10 talks on angular js but we are really not an angular js conference. Right. So, um, you can only select one or two on a certain topic potentially. And then at some stage it was kind of really interesting to see who submitted a talks, what is their experience with a certain platform or certain technology and how can we put it all together, um, that it makes sense. Very cool. So who actually speaking? Well there's a whole list of names on the website. I mean I could read through the whole list or you're excited about seeing this year. I'm mostly excited about all the new people to be honest because I know for some of them it will be even the first conference presentation.
Speaker 2: 23:07 And that's really cool. You know, it's really nice to see so many new speakers who just give it a try. You know, they have something, they have a story to tell and they have like the experience to share them. And we give them a platform to do that. And that's really amazing. I find customers, right? Like for example, there's Jennifer, she's coming from Australia. This is not a first conference talk, but that's her first time in Europe. So if he's coming to CF chem, make it a bit of a holiday around the whole trip. Um, but you know, she's never been to the unit before or to central Europe or something like that. And at the same time has a chance to talk about a lot of really interesting things about internationalization of way. Babs, you know, and why you should care about those kinds of things.
Speaker 2: 23:50 Or for example, um, we have Miguel and Lara, they are a couple that do a lot of mobile development. So they are talking about flutter, which is a new mobile, a new cross-platform mobile technology from Google, which looks really, really interesting. Um, and where I could see that platform having a great future. And that is again, like it's one of those topics that is not directly related to ColdFusion development or to CFML development, but it's something people need to know about because they might be required to build a back end for a flutter app in six months. You know, at least they should know the basics of what they communicate with.
Speaker 1: 24:37 Very cool. And just to mention some of the more famous names, I know Charlie Earhart's coming and, no, no, I've got friends from the Lucee Association.
Speaker 2: 24:48 Yeah. Charlie is talking about the topic related to monitoring. It's not about a fusion reactor this year or like, um, about the hidden gems that he quite often talks about hidden gems and cold fusion this year. It's about comparing different monitoring solutions, which I think would be really interesting. Um, yeah, we've got Matt Gifford for example, who is also very well known in the European CFML community. Um, we have Eric Peterson who's on team box essentially, and I think Eric, Eric and um, and Brett are doing the two preconference workshops from all this. Is that right machine? Yes, that's correct. Brett is doing one and Eric is doing the other one, right? Yeah, that's right. Yep. So you know, there are like a whole bunch of like old experienced speakers. I mean not old from an age point of view, but inexperienced. And then we've got a whole pile of newbies and that's really cool.
Speaker 1: 25:43 That's great. So let's talk a bit more about some of the topics. Um, what, what are the topic areas that CF camp covers?
Speaker 2: 25:52 So when we as a committee, sorry, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. So when we as a committee looked at the talks, we wanted to make sure that we have a decent amount of what we would call core CFML because at the end of the day, CF campuses CFML conference, right? We are not a generic web development conference. So pretty much the idea was if you have no interest in anything else but CFML for whatever reason, you just don't care about anything else, then you should still have a good time at the event. So about an hour, 12, 11, 12, 13, talks out about what I would call a core CFML. That could be libraries, that could be tools, an OCF, Linde or cold box, um, presided testing certain libraries or certain applications and confusion, you name it, but they are directly related to your day to day CFML development. And then around that there is a layer of other things that are kind of related to CFML that might be, you know, mobile web that might be cross platform, mobile app development, that might be general web development, Java script frameworks, javascript libraries, um, user interfaces, UX, um, testing, internationalization and a few other things.
Speaker 2: 27:27 And then the other last kind of layer is what I would probably paraphrased with infrastructure that could be deployment tooling around deployment, like version control, continuous integration, security, um, and tons of other topics in this kind of area basically.
Speaker 3: 27:50 So I, I seen as a long list of really cool topics. Are there any that stand out? Oh, I'll include the whole list in the show notes. And of course you can find them on the CF camp website too. But is there, are there any that you're particularly excited about, either of you, you got, personally, I'm very excited about the one about the fire book to, uh, so the Firefox, the Firefox Dev tools, um, are very, very important for us developers to find out what is happening in the generated code. And what I'm really proud about is that, um, one of my colleagues is giving this talk, Sebastien Sarna. He's, uh, he was the main developer, one of the main developers for firebox used to go in Firefox, the really fantastic extensions. And he's talking about why firebox had to die and why the Dev tools are not as bad as you might think because people would really often say, hey, I want back fire back.
Speaker 3: 28:49 But a, he's going to show why the fire Firefox dev tools are really fantastic. And, uh, the second thing I'm really interested in personally is the continuous documentation. This sounds very, very interesting. I, uh, to be honest, I have no idea what, uh, what he would be talking about that. But, uh, what I learned from Louis Mahana for motor solutions is documentation is very important. Aerie, yes. If you're into behavior development, human development, you're kind of writing the test cases at a time. So why not, right. Some of the documentation that at a time or as you go
Speaker 2: 29:33 the, the canoe continues documentation proposal. It was really interesting when we talked about it in the committee as well because was like we have no idea what that is. We had, you know, no one had ever heard of that concept for a start and everyone was kind of a, most people were kind of really curious like yeah, we should just take that as a talk because we all want to know what it actually is and how you would do that in the first place.
Speaker 1: 30:02 Cool. And I see the talks on security and view js creating rest API APIs, migrating databases. Um,
Speaker 2: 30:14 maybe the talk about CF migrations is really interesting from my point of view as well. Um, CF migrations is a tool that it's not about migrating databases as much. It's similar to what in [inaudible] beautiful. Ruby, what'd you do with database up in downgrades together with your code? So you would, in rails, you would write a database migration if your ski marching, just all your data change us and you would commit that with your code so that people can, while they um, you know, update their code repository with all the changes you've made, they would also have database migrations to get their database up to the, to the expected um, Schema or the expected look up table content. And CF migrations is kind of an effort to do that for CFML. And I've just used that or started using that in one of my projects and it's so nice. It's such a useful little thing that I can quite easily write those migrations now in either sequel or in an oh way. Um, and then just commit them with my code and all my code developers get my changes. They can just apply my migrations and everything is done and you don't have to, you know, like to database backups or ship patch files back and forth and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: 31:41 Wow. That sounds really cool. And I see this talk on synchronous and asynchronous coding in ColdFusion, a progressive web app, mouse, less development, that situation. So lots of different things, um, in there. So I think it's, uh, amazing. I, I think your mind is going to be blown if you're a cold fusion developer and you've come to see camp people recharge. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So this, this happened the, the years before I talked to so many people that said, wow, I wasn't aware that this was possible or that this tool exists or, or that's a great technique that I'm going to try the need to get into. So this is the what we, what we want to have for the community. Wow. So you also mentioned you have, you have a whole bunch of sponsors who, who's sponsoring, you mentioned Lucy and Adobe as sponsors. Any other sponsors? Yes, we have a, we have Lucy and Adobe
Speaker 3: 32:40 is a platinum sponsors for this year. We have distro kit also as a platinum sponsor. Um, they will put their whole business on a CFML stuff. Um, we have, uh, the guys from elastic, a sponsor, we have a pixelate, a sponsor from Roma presides. We have, uh, some of us that are all related to c from l and a way for example, fusion react or um, integral. So with fusion reactor, with the monitor solution and so on. Well in there they based in Germany. So yes they are based in Germany or in indeed. So they have really a short trip to Munich.
Speaker 2: 33:24 Cool. Well quite a few companies actually sponsoring that are based in Germany. I mean it's integral then Tuxedo computers. It's a company that built Linux laptops. Um, so they find it really interesting to look at that developer market. Um, UTD is a German company. They build software for event management I think, um, contents which has a quite well known condom management solution. They are based in Munich and then conduct, which is local to to unique as well.
Speaker 3: 33:54 Yeah, correct. These are, they are supporting us with their, um, with their recording of the sessions. Um, this going to be interested in, but they did a fantastic job last year. And, um, yeah, it just worked. So for every session you can can see 50 minutes recording on Vimeo, would it be theater?
Speaker 1: 34:17 Wow. So that, that sounds like you end up with about 15 or 20 hours of training material if you, you know,
Speaker 3: 34:24 on video. Yeah, indeed. Indeed. So I'm, it takes, so seeing the one half of the talks directly and the other half, uh, on the video, really, um, take some time to get into these topics. Definitely.
Speaker 1: 34:40 And you also, I think you get last year's recordings too. Is that right?
Speaker 3: 34:45 Yes, that's right. So both buying a ticket or getting the last years recording also a, which means so they can see what it's what happened last year and use this already tool. Get the feel of the conference.
Speaker 1: 35:01 Well, and also you get lost as soon as you sign up. You get lost years. Yeah, correct. Coding. Well, I think, I forgot to ask you how much it costs to attend a CF camp.
Speaker 3: 35:11 Uh, the price for us yet, campus 330 euros, including that, uh, this includes the completely, that today's including all the drinking foods all over the days, including dinner on the, uh, on the first day. Um, well basically that's it. So, um, there is a, it includes also a, a bag with some swag and, um, we are, we have a very interesting present for the speakers again this year, a year and the attendees, so piece of priced and um, yeah, it's, it's definitely not expensive for two days to be on [inaudible].
Speaker 1: 35:56 Okay. And for those, so much included, but those who are not used to spending money in euros, that's about 365 US dollars. So, um, what a deal, just a dollar a day to get all this ColdFusion. Goodness. Um, so tell us a bit more about, you said some do something special about the evening event. Is there, I didn't quite understand that. Is there a band? It's not a venture. We could think about that for the next year. Having a CFML band or something. Yeah,
Speaker 3: 36:26 no. What, um, what we had the last two years already and it was really a fantastic show is the famous Codemasters Eh, this is the more or less the life with you show, uh, from mark drew and Rob Dudley. They are doing the local host podcasts about CFML and they are doing a game show for the evening and we have two teams. We have two teams competing against each other and uh, they have to answer questions and they are all related to some CFML stuff. And it's, it was, it was really quite interesting thing. I remember they had, uh, last year, um, a quiz about http status codes. So of course, you know, uh, what is a follow four? Um, but do you know what the, the, what was the t time http status code is and stuff like that. And this is really just fun. It's really, um, two hours, a lot of fun. Um, there are other recordings of the rest years shows on the website and can just see what, what happened there. And this is really, um, really fantastic. And this is also a very, very big thank you to mark and true mark and rob, they are spending so much time in doing that and it's absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 1: 37:55 That's great. I mean that reminds me of some of the quiz shows that were cold fusion based that we had at CF United where we had uh, you know, basically quiz shows with cold fusion questions. Okay. So great that you're doing that. So I guess I should ask you where, you know, it's cold fusion developers listening or cold fusion managers, why should they come to CF camp?
Speaker 3: 38:21 Why should they come to safe campus? First of all, I think the interesting thing about CF camp is the variety of talks we are going to offer for these two days. So as Kyle already said, we have some core talks about really CFML related stuff, but there's so many things around that you need to know and to see and there need to be ever about. Um, that it's quite interesting to, to get a, a wrap up of this technology access. And this is what I can do with that. And it may helps you in the next project. So, um, especially the, um, um, the documentation stuff for example. So I don't know how much code I have seen without documentation. So maybe for the next project just go ahead and start using what you learned at the conference. And the next thing is why you should come to CF campus.
Speaker 3: 39:17 You are going to learn so many nice people. Um, it was, it is really this, it's more, it's in this size. It's more about, it's more like a family reunion every year. It's not like a, you know, you're going to a conference, uh, about PHP with the 2000 people and you know, three of them, um, here at CF chem. So the community is quite small compared to other communities that you know, these people. And meanwhile, hey, it's your chance to see them live and in color instead of just the picture on slack or something like that.
Speaker 2: 39:57 That's really interesting. Like when you, because when you said like CF camp is a bit like a family reunion and that is true. Right. And that's one of the drywall. That's what I come back. Even from using one for. It's like purely when you look at, when you look at the conference size itself and at the fact that I could get the videos after the event, you think like, well it's a 24 hour flight worth it for me, for my personal point of view. And I have to say it is right because I enjoy hanging out with the people. I enjoy meeting the people from the European coach community or CFML community that I used to work with for, I don't know, 10 years before I moved to New Zealand. And Michi is totally right. It is like a family reunion. And the other funny thing too to notice that as you actually grow older together in some way through your narrative, you know, and I think back about 10 years and look at photos from back then like Oh wow, we have become gray, gray or hairless or you know, various aging things that you can actually see.
Speaker 2: 41:01 It's really interesting.
Speaker 1: 41:04 And also it's a great Charles to talk with the speakers and also, you know, the people from Lucy and Adobe and you know, tell them what you like about cold fusion or what problems you're having and be able to get some quick answers. So
Speaker 2: 41:20 yeah, I think the nice thing with, with CF canvas particularly, you have easy access to the people who work on Lucy, like the Lucy engineers. That's probably the easiest way to meet them in real. Um, similar to if you were to go to CF summit, it's probably a good chance to catch up with Adobe. ColdFusion engineering's
Speaker 3: 41:42 engineering people. Oh, absolutely. I mean the, you, they all fly out. Well it's about 20 of them fly out now. I guess there's more in the team than that. Yeah. So what is, what is worth mentioning is that a, we also have a fair rules, which means that, uh, all these people, all the responders and um, and speakers of you can catch up with them during the whole two days. It's not that they are a way off to their, their talk. No, you have the chance to get directly to the Lucy booth and say, hey, I have this certain issue, um, what is the best way to get around? Or I have an idea, or I'm sorry, I have to complain because feature exists is missing or something like that. So, um, that's really a great way to catch up with people and, and talk to them directly.
Speaker 3: 42:33 Um, with your, maybe your personal kind of issue you have in your, your application. So let's turn to some more general questions. Um, festival that we're both UI proud to use ColdFusion in 2019. Well, I still think it's one of the most powerful and easiest to use languages that are still available when I see you. What, what other kind of codes is this? Um, we're running around you. You see this? Oh yeah, that's a nice thing. But why do I need 45 lines of code in Java code to send an email? Um, there is, you know, you're, if you're, if you're using CFML you, you know how it is, you just use one line of code that's called the CFM CF mail. And you know, it's, it's just just easy to get into and it's still very, very powerful. Um, since the code is compiled to Java by code, you do not have any performance issues or things like that. So I think it's still one of the the best languages you can use for development.
Speaker 2: 43:50 I have a probably a more diversified view on it. Um, for example, with that, that example that misuse with like 45 lines of Java code to send an email. That's true if you were to write that from scratch, right. But in all reality, as a Java developer, you would use a library to do that for you and it would be one or two lines of code as well. However, that is kind of interesting segue into what CFML both Lucy and confusion really are, they are abstraction layers over the JVM. That's really what it is from my point of view. Basically they all like a productivity abstraction layer and depending what you want to achieve in your backend coding, they can be the perfect tool to do that for you. And in other instances, a different tool might be better. That's just what it is. Now these days, right?
Speaker 2: 44:45 Like I mean, cold fusion and Lucy are from my point of view, good solutions, but they are not solutions for everything. Right? In some instances other technologies might be more appropriate. I mean that's important too to look at it realistically. Um, when it comes to Adobe, ColdFusion and Lucee I personally prefer Lucy and I'm not shy about, you know, telling people that and that is because of the openness and the transparency of the solution as well as the development. Um, that is just more appropriate for a language and a server platform in 2019 from my point of view. Um, I find it hard to justify for myself and for clients to, you know, spend money on a language. Basically. It's tricky, right? Because every other language is free. Um, so Lucy provides a really nice option to work with CFML don't have that licensing problem, have kind of easy access to cloud because you can just freely deploy it to pretty much any cloud platform that you want. And that is kind of, you know, modern way to develop backends for the web. From my point of view.
Speaker 3: 46:05 Cool. Yeah, it's, um, interesting, I was talking to someone recently about.net, which in theory is quotes free, but they may explain how Microsoft get you to pay out for like the ID and a windows server and SQL server one time. You're telling them to spend way more money. You know, I remember, I remember many, many years ago when I started with cold fusion, there was, there was a, an architect from Ben Forta with the title, but it's free. And they actually look for that. That was, that was that, that explained exactly what it, what you, what you just described. So yes, it's free, but if you need that and that and that, you just have to pay for licenses and libraries and things like that. And this was the included in the [inaudible] at that time already. So, um, that's, that explains exactly the situation. So, um, again, if you, if you need some special PHP stuff, um, yeah, you have to pay for that. Um, and that's, that's, um, for all the languages.
Speaker 2: 47:17 That's actually really interesting. So do you, do we think called fusion or CFML has changed from, from back then to today? Because what you just said, me, she was like, you know, back then, quit cold fusion, had all those things that in other tech you had to pay for. Is it still the same or have things kind of like, you know, it's a company hosted?
Speaker 3: 47:41 No, it's still the same is because you, you, what you get in a, in a Lucy is really so much functionality that is included. Uh, all the major stuff, all the API stuff or you know, um, things like things like that are included already. Like, um, some things to generate RSS feeds or stuff like that, that has all included for free. And um, yeah, it's still the same soul, the, the, the way of, um, giving a powerful tool to the people, um, didn't change them. So, yeah. Cool. Now as you know, I, I'm very interested in making ColdFusion more alive and that's why we have this podcast. I wrote the book on that. So I'm curious what, what do you think, what would it take to make ColdFusion even more alive this year? Go ahead and go. No, no, go ahead.
Speaker 2: 48:39 I think one of the biggest drivers for CFML to be relevant and to stay relevant is currently that how will modern CFML development movement, which is basically centered around stuff like c'mon box, um, the easy and easy way to install modules and libraries and get things set up in a modern way comparable to platforms like note or modern Java with a Rappel or Kotlin or you know, numerous other languages that have those features. So probably if you, if someone was really looking into driving code fusion and like you know, leveraging cold fusion of CFML for themselves. I would say the stuff that comes out of orders from a technical point of view is these days something you can't and should not avoid. That's kind of a must, more or less, which is, you know, good and bad for obviously it's good because they are doing amazing stuff. It's bad because a lot of things are centered around like one group of people. And that's always a bit risky like in any, you know, in any scenario,
Speaker 3: 49:57 what I think is missing to get the CFM on warrior life is an application which is so easy and uh, and useful that everybody wants to use in heaven. Why is PHP so popular? Because of an application like wordpress? So there are so many things that you can do with, uh, with wordpress and, and uh, stuff around and plugins and thousands and thousands of, of layouts so that everybody says, Hey, okay, I'm going to use the application and essence based on, on page pace. So if you have an application that is using, um, CPL in the background, I think this will totally help the community to get, um, c l in a, on a really wide base and saying this is, you also need the hosting, uh, problem solve. So if you want to get a Lucy or Adobe ColdFusion up and running, you need a special hosting partner with PHP. You get it. Just go ahead and slip and say, okay, you're going to take the next one. That's easily with CFML it's a bit more difficult to set up. You may maybe a docker container or things like that. So, um, the entry level needs to be more easier with the start up and running stuff.
Speaker 2: 51:18 I would disagree with that actually. I think like who's who's using classic hosting these days? I mean most people have for quite a while and moved on into some sort of a cloud deployment scenario, let it be AWS or Google cloud or whatever else. Right. And it doesn't make that much of a difference if you want to host Lucy in the cloud or run Lucy in a cloud through DACA for example, or some other containerizer or if you want to run PHP or Tyson or something like that in the cloud. So I think that hosting argument that we need CFML hosting companies, that was probably more relevant like five years ago. I think it's less relevant today. And with the killer app, I would agree to some extent. So, um, there is just nothing that sticks out where people say like, even like, Hey, this thing is written in CFML, that's such a cool technology.
Speaker 2: 52:18 I wanna use CFML for my next project. I wouldn't, you know, wordpress is a good solution as a big solution. It has its problems, but it can serve as an inspiration to people. I don't necessarily think CFML needs a killer app as such, so we don't need a block system or like a killer CMS or a forum or something like that. But it's more than inspirational bit that is missing from my point of view. People need something big and visible to look up to and say like, I can achieve this or something similar. Right. And there's not much around, um, in that field when you look at the CFML application market. And part of the problem is that people don't talk that much about what they built with it. Right? Like, I mean, particularly in commercial land, people might be quite shy and like not communicate that extremely loud. Um, but even in open source land, people don't necessarily, you know, share big solutions they've built. And I have a customer, you know, that has their, they have a massive CFML based deployment. Um, but you know, no one, hardly anyone would know about that. Yeah. It's just like this, it happens behind the scenes quite often.
Speaker 3: 53:38 Cool. Well, thanks for coming on the show and, uh, looking forward to CF camp, uh, in Munich in, in a few weeks. Anything else you want to say to people before you go? Well, I'm a really happy to welcome everyone at the CFM. So, um, I already, um, have the list here who's attending and I'm really happy to see 'em again, even if it's only once a year. Um, some friends and I said it's, for me personally, it's more feminine.
Speaker 2: 54:19 Let's see. I think my last words would be if I can make it from New Zealand and if I can talk people from Australia coming to Munich, then if you're in Europe, get your ass over there. Jesus Christ.
Speaker 3: 54:32 Well, great. Well thanks for both, for coming on the show today.
Speaker 2: 54:37 [inaudible] you're welcome. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3: 54:39 Okay, goodbye.
Speaker 4: 54:40 Okay.
