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Michaela Light 0:01
Welcome to the podcast. We're coming here live from CF camp in Munich, Germany. And we are going to be talking about Lucee 6 the new release of Lucee CFML. And we've got some amazing experts here. Mark Drew who's done a lot of Lucee coding at distro kid. Then we've got Charlie Erehart, the ColdFusion troubleshooting expert giving an independent view on Lucee. Then we've got Ben Nadal all the way from New York City. And he's the top blogger among ColdFusion people according to our annual survey, and then we got good friends from Lucee Association, Switzerland, coming up at the end, but not least. And on the other screen, if you're watching on video, we have some of the attendees from Sierra camp when we open the set. Yay, go attendee. And we'll be opening up to audience questions later in the show. So why don't we just start by just going through each of the four panelists, and I'm just want to ask you, what are you most excited about in Lucee 6?
Gert Franz 1:09
That it's here.
Well, you know, it took us it took us really three long years. And we announced it actually at CF Camp 2019. And we even had a logo, we had all the features. We had everything. And then okay, I have the greatest excuse ever. COVID hips. So there goes, no, that slowed us a little down. And finally, we were able to release the release candidate yesterday. And the final release will come out after I suppose next week, just right before Misha goes on holiday. You know, he's gonna go okay, this is live. I'm outta here. Right. Please comments to Zac. Right. And so that is really my highlight of it. I have lots of different highlights, which I can talk to about about later on as well. But anyway, passing on. What about you, Ben?
Michaela Light 2:09
What are you most excited about in the Lucee 6 release?
Ben Nadel 4 2:15
I think the Java integration looks super exciting. For me, so much of what makes Lucee so fun to work with is breaking down the barriers between the ColdFusion code and other code, whether it's very simple things like you don't have to expand paths to read files. And you can just do relative file paths or creating components by passing in jar libraries, tag islands for easy CF query stuff, obviously, I mean, it's a given. So the Java stuff is, to me has always been a huge black box that I've never really been able to break into. So I'm super excited to be able to now start to dribble in some Java code and interact with external Java libraries in much more advanced ways than just instantiating stuff. So that that to me is super exciting.
Michaela Light 3:05
How about you, Charlie?
Charlie Arehart 3:06
There you go. I wanted to give you that chance. So first, um, the answer to a question. That's rare? Um, the answer to a question, which one of these does not belong? Because here talking about? Try. Go ahead.
Michaela Light 3:23
You could do the Jeopardy quiz on Lucee.
Charlie Arehart 3:28
That's right. That's right. And I can't help but wanted to point out that you know, CF 2021. did add CF Java, you can do Java within CFML already in cm, to kind of point that out. But, you know, it's kind of gotta represent, but no, but but there are awesome things coming in Lucee 6. And the thing I love, I think the most, although I'm sure I'll love more, as we learn more. We, there's so much so little time you guys were dancing to get through that keynote. But the listeners are awesome. And not just for query listening, which somebody mica, I don't know, if I'll use that. But the male listener, you know, just thinking of all the things you could do, to be able to capture before and after events. That's just amazing. And it is, you know, sad that Adobe may or may not bother to implement such a thing. And I'll just say the thing that I got out of this morning, is I think it's like, Screw it, we're just going to do it. We're going to do, we're going to make it great. And it's going to serve our audience. And if that doesn't suit, everybody, uh, well, we're going to do what we want to do. And you know, Zac made that point many times if there's something you want done, let us know. We want to make your development experience better. And that's just an awesome message. And you know, I'm not only the loose the audience should gravitate to that, but I'm sure many in the CF community that are itching to see things improved. They're just gonna maybe say, You know what, I'm tired of waiting for it to come. So I think it's very interesting times, so yes, good, good stuff to see.
Michaela Light 5:02
Mark Drew, what are you excited about in this release?
Mark Drew 5:05
Well, I wear a different hat not meant for well, metaphorically, rather than actually. I think the thing that most excites me is like CF config as a configuration, the basic configuration for Lucee and single server, like the fact that you have to be container friendly, like Kubernetes friendly, that cloud friendly, this is the way things are now this is no like, oh, the future, this is like the past this new things coming up in the future. And it's taken a while for us to get really friendly with being able to do very quick startup times, warming up, build time, so that we can really do massively scalable applications. And that's what I'm really excited about.
Michaela Light 5:51
Well, can just translate very quickly into seconds.
Mark Drew 5:57
Sorry, translate the sentence.
Michaela Light 5:59
No, very quickly, you said it.
Mark Drew 6:02
I don't know. There's way the fact that it will start up in seconds, and configured so we can start it up, warm it up, and get it all like into container ready to go. And you can start up in a couple of seconds and be ready application.
Gert Franz 6:19
I want to fill into that. I actually installed Lucee 6. Shame on me. Last week, for the first time we have been visiting. Yes, I'm sorry. You know, you're gonna hate me and everything. But I knew everything about it. But I wanted it to be somewhat stable before I actually put my hands and yeah, so I have to be honest there. And I had a glass of wine. So anyway. And I was very, very happily astonished that it starts under a second. Right? And that is the promise that we made four years ago, Let's aim for a second or less. And if you run it in the single configuration mode, that is where you don't have a server and a web admin. So we're going back to the Adobe roots. Right? So we're going to one administrator only. So you don't have a weapon, the server context, just regular context, then it starts with…
Mark Drew 7:16
It's going forwards. forwards.
Gert Franz 7:19
Yes. I'm sorry about that. So that's my first highlight. So that starts within sub second. And the other one is dot CFS files, you know, oh my god, it's about time. Yeah, it's about time. You know, it's just like a component where you can write CF script from the beginning. And now CFS files are supported, which are allowing you to write just pure CF script CFML templates that only excite Hangouts. So there was a question from the audience. What about sled debugging? There was a question from the audience. What about thread debugging? Well, thread debugging, I have to remind that I have installed it last week, so I have no clue. I know that thread debugging is something that I always wished for. And I think the debugger, if I'm not wrong, is now showing you the output of everything that happens inside of a see a thread that correct. Okay, thank God. Anyway, that was when I wished for a couple of years.
Michaela Light 8:26
Clarify for the audience at home. If you've got multiple threads, which most CF applications do running, you can debug into one of them, or several.
Gert Franz 8:38
Just one thing, the audience can always ask questions. So if you want to ask us anything, just raise your hand and then go ahead.
Michaela Light 8:46
Well, and get let's get the microphone to the question or two, if that's possible. Before we go to audience questions. I'd love to do that. Next. I just wanted to get your quick reactions on how CF camp is because not everyone listening has been to CF ham. Maybe they need to hear what it's actually like. And we've got three Americans here and one European so maybe you have a slightly different viewpoint. Mark.
Mark Drew 9:13
I am British just
Michaela Light 9:15
British, sorry. We got British, Americans, and Europeans or you might, you're a pretty European or something.
Gert Franz 9:22
You are not European anymore.
Mark Drew 9:24
Oh, okay. Well, geographically, we still are, we weren't able to exactly launch Britain across the Atlantic Ocean as much as some people wish to. But to talk about CF campus is a very good vibe after four years. I've missed a lot of faces that I didn't get to see and to talk to a lot of really wonderful people. And it's been some great talk so far. More or less keep it going next year. Yes, maybe next year. Yes.
Michaela Light 10:03
How about you, Charlie? Is this your first CF camp?
Charlie Arehart 10:06
No, it's not my first No, no, I've been to several and one of the great things about CF camp is right there.
Mark Drew 10:15
Absolutely good German. German beer Absolutely. Or wine. Or water. Seltzer, Seltzer. Meat, gas, mid gas, right.
Gert Franz 10:29
Mid gas, main sparkling water. And in Berlin. It's cold Still or loud. So quiet or loud.
Michaela Light 10:37
About you, Ben. I think this is your first CF cam. Am I right?
Ben Nadel 10:42
Yeah, absolutely. This is my first CF camp.
Gert Franz 10:44
We tried about 15 years. Okay. CF camp is not that old. But we tried for 5, 6, 7, 8 years to get him over. And he never made it. But now finally,
Michaela Light 10:56
Well, tell us, Ben, we finally got you to come and what do you think?
Ben Nadel 11:03
I was nervous. I was nervous coming here. I haven't been around people in a really long time. Come on. That's true, very small. I have a lot of social anxiety, I have a lot of travel anxiety. So I feel very out of practice. I didn't know if I could make small talk anymore. And y'all have been super, super wonderful and welcoming. And it's been really a pleasure. I've been just having a wonderful, wonderful time.
Michaela Light 11:39
And what's your CF camp experience this year?
Gert Franz 11:44
What I like very much is the passion. And we have made it through rough times. I've said that in the keynote this morning. It was not easy for many of us. And but what I still see Is everyone here has so much passion about their job about their work. But CFML whether it's Adobe or Lucee, the company doesn't really matter. They really love their job. They love working on it. And they love committing even if it's just correcting my Well, third language, weird German or showing off now whatever. Oh, it's certainly my third language. Sorry. Yes, sir. Sorry. But you know, actually, just a side story. Today, we were playing around with chat GPT. And we wanted to translate the administrator to Klingon. But apparently, the repository for Klingon wasn't big enough for chat GPT. So we use something else like Vietnamese, and we'll say. Great stuff is really cool. And I love the energy.
Michaela Light 12:56
Yes. Excellent. Why don't we see if anyone has questions in the audience that CF camp or maybe meshi can get a microphone to them
Gert Franz 13:02
By the way, to whatever, you know, not only safe amount related to any question.
Michaela Light 13:17
They are a bit shy right now, but maybe they need a few moments to think about it. Meanwhile, I'm going to ask what happened to the JSON configuration, and Lucee 6, it seems to have changed quite a lot?
Mark Drew 13:28
Yeah, so I'm gonna say some of the stuff that we've implemented before, and I'm gonna be specific to the SEC. So I'm going to be looking at Zac who's like on the front page, and he's going to nod or shake his head if I'm wrong. So one of the things that we really wanted to do was be able to configure Lucee really easily, right. And one of the things that we've had for many years is the Lucee server dot XML and Lucee web dot XML dot CFM, for some weird reason. That is a full XML file. And XML we all know is very old. This crap is terrible. It's not very readable. I mean, it sure is possible by the machine. But how has Yeah, it has comments which is, which is true. But one of the nice things is that you're now able to have a server dot CFC and a web dot CFC that get loaded up just before everything else gets loaded up. And in that you can actually then load any file, which is a CF conflict file, for example, there's a function to load conflicts, like you can actually be load a config, either in code or by putting a CF config. JSON in the right place. I can't remember off the top my head where it is. And that's super important from a DevOps point of view. Because these are files that you copy across all the time. These are files that you want variable replacement in, you know, like this is alive, this is a staging, there's a QA server, etc. So Upload, this was super important for what we've been doing to have Lucia at scale.
Gert Franz 15:07
Yeah, and we just have talked about this today that we might even support JSON 5, so that we can support comments. And Jason is, yeah, I mean, you know, if you, for example, convert something from the XML of Lucee 5x to 6, it will lose all the comments, right. And then if you can, or if you serialize, something that has comments or should have comments, you can serialize it, the comments could all eliminate it. And JSON five supports that. So we're working together, or we're, at least with talk today about that. That doesn't mean we're working it together. But we try to get command box and Lucee to support JSON 5, so that we can have commented JSON structs, which will help a lot.
Mark Drew 15:53
I mean, and like let's not beat around the bush, TF config has been an amazing tool, you're bringing stuff from from ACF service Solusi service, vice versa is an amazing tool. The problem that under the hood, what is doing is creating XML that can get out of date, that that goes against features and Lucee and it then it becomes a war of attrition with that we have to keep the library up to date for any new changes. And you don't want that at a configuration level. So Lucee having built in a format for its configuration in JSON, super important to me.
Gert Franz 16:35
I had a question actually to Ben or to Charlie, I brought up attack that I wanted to have introduced in Lucee for about 10 years or so. And finally and Lucee 6 had made it, which is the CF timer attack. Now the CF timer tag is something weird. Very often we have some resources which don't respond. So you have an endless request going and going and going and going. And so you can put a CF timeout tag around it, and just say I expect you to run only 10 seconds, and then it gracefully bails out. So is that something that would be helpful to you?
Ben Nadel 17:15
Yeah, I do stuff like that, you know, manually right now, if I have to process like several million records, I don't necessarily want to do a million records at the same time running on the same production server as users. So I'll chunk and I'll do like, how many records can you process in five seconds, and then don't call us again for 60 seconds. And that gives me time to watch the CPUs on the database, watch the CPUs on the servers. And I can turn that processing on and off usually with a feature flag, if it becomes problematic. So the idea of having that just be another thing that's easier to do in Lucee that's just like, always, always a value add for me.
Charlie Arehart 17:56
Yeah. And I liken it to being like a try catch. It's like the equivalent of moving error handler closer to the thing that might go wrong. You're moving the timeout capability closer to what might go along. And that's go here's.
Gert Franz 18:15
Yeah, that's pretty good.
Charlie Arehart 18:16
But I want to talk about the JSON thing for a second, we were talking about earlier. It is awesome that that you can now have all the configuration in JSON, and you guys are lamenting that it's XML. But if you're in ColdFusion land, it's not only XML, it's W ddx. XML. Oh, no, really? XML is really fun.
Gert Franz 18:38
Oh, yeah. Isn't that Adobe Premiere? Yeah, they created that.
Charlie Arehart 18:41
I remember it was a conference in 1998. At Fort Collins, Colorado. It was the first real ColdFusion conference that ever happened. And the lair guys came and they were so excited to come out with it. But this made sense back then. Yeah, back then. But yeah, since then, what I'm saying is that we who have to work with CFLs XML configured confusions XML configuration, it's WD x which is even worse, but But I will say for those who don't know gotta represent CF 2021. did add a CF setup tool, which is like CF config. And we can export CF admin settings as XML and can do it against any CFS version, as sorry as JSON as JSON. But against any version two, you could like use the CF setup tool, export CF 10, you know, admin settings as a JSON file, and then import those into a CFR 21. So that is pretty cool. That sounds like what's the IP config is awesome. That was a Yeah, I'm not I'm not wanting to say just say that about to see if config and this is the sad thing about so much of this stuff is that you wonder sometimes come on Adobe. Why don't you just get on the wagon with this thing that's already existing. They create their own thing. Sometimes it's too bad.
Mark Drew 19:57
You finish it. Well, he is now that you tickets, waiting to just saying nice. I mean, conflicts are really good. But out of 12, factor apps, go look it up to a factor dotnet, which is how most cloud native apps are. Now, one of the things is having configuration in environment variables, and have an environment variable replacements, which is part of the CF config, which is part of the new lucee configuration management, which is super important. And there's like, you know, it's not just about configuration files, it's about being able to have the same source code on it on it on a container on an image, and then being able to pass new variables to it. And it behaves differently at a very fundamental level. And that's huge. That's huge. It's such a small thing, but it's like, it's massive. In my my, I've been apart from like features, but features who needs features?
Ben Nadel 20:57
I just some clarity about the environment, variable substitution? Are you? Are you saying that when you load the JSON file in, and you have placeholders, and if the environment variables are available, though?
Gert Franz 21:11
No, so what you can do in the JSON configuration files, I guess it's curly bracket, dollar sign, right?
Mark Drew 21:21
Curly bracket M colon? Actually, you can do them in XML files at the moment, but yeah, the same thing and JSON files.
Franz Gert 21:27
Yeah. And then you can, Yep? Okay, so Michaela, you should go to session tomorrow, He will teach us all about that. So it is about we, we allow or Lucee allows configuring or using and replacing in environment variables in the configuration files, which is really cool. Because very often, you just don't want to change the configuration file. But you have a different environment, like a QA or a dev server, staging server production server. And they should behave differently depend, like, for example, if you have AWS keys that you don't want to expose in any of the other environments, you just pass them in as environment variables, and they get replaced and set in the configuration.
Michaela Light 22:15
That's genius. I'm just checking if any audience members have questions, if not, I'll go to another question I have.
Gert Franz 22:19
any questions? There was a question. Where's the microphone?
Michaela Light 22:24
Yeah. Where's that microphone?
Mark Drew 22:26
I'll take it on there.
Michaela Light 22:30
Man, she's had a very long day run know,
Gert Franz 22:32
He's running. He's running.
So. So one thing to mention the guy who's who's asking the question right now is the guy who did Firebug
Gert Franz 22:42
Question from the audience 22:45
Thanks. Thanks for the introduction. And Mark, you said, we could ask everything. So I wanted to know, how long are you involved in Web development? Every one of you.
Mark Drew 23:00
Well, when I started gifts when animated. This didn't move. I started at a university. So that must have been ‘92. Web Development and 92 Yeah, yeah, mosaic would present what? I was doing it as part of my degree.
Gert Franz 23:22
By the way, just to that, Michaela Pawel told me that we're raffling three books of yours. We are. Okay, so, for that, I have prepared three questions.
Charlie Arehart 23: 38
What is your name? Your favorite color?
Gert Franz 23:22
Okay, what so Wait, hang on. We'll just get back to this in a second. And we'll get back to the question. As you may have noticed the two elderly gentleman have chairs with armrests. Right. So the question is about what or who is older? Oh, so first question. So to answer you have to put your arm up. Yes. Put your arm up and then we'll just say good eyesight. So first question. Who is older? JJ Alaire. Ben Forta or myself?
Michaela Light 24:27
Any guesses from the audience?
Gert Franz 24:28
Yes. Okay, he won the first book.
Michaela Light 24:33
What was the correct answer for the end?
Gert Franz 24:36
Ben Forta is the oldest of the three of us. He's really older. Yeah, he's three weeks older than I am. Two years older than JJ.
Charlie Arehart 24: 29
As a matter of fact, he is into blockchain
Gert Franz 24:52
Will come to another question in a bit so yes, the book as soon as possible.
Michaela Light 24:59
Okay, Yes, we'll make sure to get you the book. All right, so how long? Shall we just go through the rest of the panelists to answer the question from the audience how long you've been in web development of any kind, not just ColdFusion.
Charlie Arehart 25:12
What's funny, you add that clarification. So I started with ColdFusion, ‘96. And just before that in like ‘95, I was working on believe it or not a mainframe that had a application development language that we were doing web development on the mainframe in ’95, ‘96. Yeah, it's hard to believe.
Ben Nadel 25:35
I got my first summer internship this summer between ‘99 and 2000. And they just happen to be using ColdFusion 4.5. So that was onboarding into ColdFusion, I guess I had done like a little bit of PHP and a tiny bit of AS. A tiny bit of AS because ColdFusion made more sense.
Mark Drew 25:59
We all did PHP. Just admit it. Just one
Michaela Light 26:03
pearl, you know, if you're going to use the P word, Mark.
Gert Franz 26:09
Okay, so I'm the teenager here. I started in late 2000s. Believe it or not, before, before ColdFusion I knew nothing. Literally nothing of the web. Just browsing, you know, using a browser or what have you. I was a Delphi and Pascal programmer before mainframes, Delphi clipper or whatever. But no whip. Nothing.
Charlie Arehart 26:38
That was like 30 years ago.
Gert Franz 26:42
Yeah, you're the senior. Good.
Michaela Light 26:46
Well, I'll answer the question too. Yeah.
Gert Franz 26:47
What about you? What about you, Michaela?
Michaela Light 26:52
Well, I remember setting up a Linux server. So we could have a website, we hosted ourselves and have email, which was early 90s. I can't I'm sorry, I don't remember the exact year. But I do remember having this separate box that we'd log at all have to separately login to, to get to our email. And we had the website was in some ancient I can't even remember the language it was in it wasn't. It was pre ColdFusion. It was some, wasn't Perl, I did do a bit of Perl. It'll come back to me later. I'll fill it in, in the show notes what that language was, but it was some kind of simple tag language. Now I started ColdFusion, I think ‘96 or ‘97 with version 1.5. And I still have that T shirt for the web server that came with the ColdFusion.
Charlie Arehart 27:43
Yeah, the O'Reilly web server,
Michaela Light 27:45
a Riley web server? Yeah.
Charlie Arehart 27:48
And it came with star base version control star base. Yes. No one's ever heard of it. But you remember you you ran the Maryland ColdFusion News Group?
Michaela Light 27:58
I did. Yes. I took it over actually from someone else. I forget his name.
Charlie Arehart 28:02
But that was the first ColdFusion user group I ever gave a presentation to was selling ColdFusion News Group in ‘97. So I remember very fondly thank you for that.
Michaela Light 28:13
Cool. All right. Do we have another audience question or should we proceed? Yes, we do. I see someone at the front. That's not a microphone. No, you can't give him a bottle of wine to answer the question.
Just for later audience members on listening here though. It's sometime past 1pm in the United States. It's about 8:30 and or later in Germany, so I don't want people listening to think that these are morning ColdFusion drinkers.
Gert Franz 28:48
Hang on this. Mark, this is coffee. And that's lemonade.
Michaela Light 28:56
Lemonade, all right, with the with the loud bubbles.
Question from the audience 29:03
As we're talking about old people. When did you register your first domain?
Mark Drew 29:11
Okay, so I can tell you what my first time was. And surprisingly, it's Mark true.com. And then I let it lapse. And ever since at least 2003. I've been trying to get it back. So I think the first time I reached my domain was around 2000.
Michaela Light 29:39
Wow, maybe someone in the audience has that domain?
Charlie Arehart 29:44
Do you have that to me? Hello. Oh.
Charlie Arehart 29:56
Well, I can say I've been sitting on my first domain for for almost 30 years, it's, it's still out there. And it's called system manage.com. So if you want to have a fun trip down memory lane, look up system manage with one M. And so I had come out of the world, and I had been a system administrator. They called it System Manager in that world. And so I thought, hey, that's a clever Domain Name System manage. And that's what I used to do was, you know, that before I got into ColdFusion, I was doing that sort of system management. And it still works. Well. System manage was one with what's that? Yes, the orange styling. And if you look [email protected] I used to have that weird sort of mirror look to the letters, you know, that was really popular back in the early 90s.
Mark Drew 30:46
A practice makes you perfecgt.
Charlie Arehart 30:48
Yes, our practice makes you perfect. That was my tagline. Yeah. How about that? It's trademarked.
Ben Nadel 30:57
It is I think I've been buying domain names, maybe like two a year, since like, 2004. And I've done nothing with, like, the vast majority of them. So I think I'm collecting them. No, no, you know, you have a good idea. Yeah, you're like sitting on the toilet. You're like, ah, check it out. And it's available.
Mark Drew 31:17
No one else will ever have this idea? I must register the domain. Just uh, yeah,
Ben Nadel 31:21
Exactly. And then, you know, nothing. Maybe three of them. I've actually used unfortunately. I have no idea. And I have no idea. I mean, I've had been near dell.com. Forever. But my, my dad bought it for me as a birthday present. Yeah, so also very geeky. Yeah, he's very forward thinking. It was nice.
Charlie Arehart 31:42
For those who have been around a long time, you would think that the first thing you registered would have had something to do with? I don't know. Come on. What mighty bad something to do with anybody old enough to remember what was very common in his code. Girls, girls. Oh, good. Yeah, a new man.
Gert Franz 32: 07
So first domain. First domain I ever registered. I guess we're gert. friends.ch obviously, and I was building this hotel and restaurant recommendation service, and ColdFusion back then ColdFusion 4 or 5. And it was good. And um, it was I was thinking that I'm gonna make millions and nobody's gonna give give a damn about this. So and then TripAdvisor came out and said, Oh, they stole my idea. And then anyway, they would have never made it that far. So that was the first domain I ever registered for something like $200, which was very expensive back then. Wow, that was 2000.Michaela Light 32:48
Was that with? Was that with networks? solutions or whatever they called?
Gert Franz 32:53
Yeah, something like that. Yes. Yeah. You had to do go through.com. If you wanted to do to register a domain? Yeah. Question from the audience?
Question from the audience 33:03
No. All right. We're just gonna follow up there, now trump you all, 95? Why? And it was free. It was
Mark Drew 33:11
Because someone needed one coat. Coat coat.
Gert Franz 33:16
Why did you register? microsoft.com?
Speaker from the audience 33:17
I wish no, no, back then it was it was domain registry was run in the UK, by the academic environment. And so you just had to prove some sort of association with a name. And I happen to be running a bulletin board with that name. So yes, I had to send them a fax.
Mark Drew 33:39
So following on from that for free, I paid very little for mine, but I managed to sell them for a lot of money. And I do want to know what it is. Alright, so minky.com. So I didn't m i n k y.com. Now, I didn't realize because that was a word that we had between my friends of something that was bad, like, you know, glass platform shoes, you know, something two left, folks. You know, there's like, that's what it was. And then a company turned up with a very heavy Yorkshire accent. If only there was someone here from Yorkshire that could actually do the accent for me. But they came up and said, like, you might not have heard of it, but your wife might have known your wife, stroke or girlfriend might have. And we do a range of products for the home which are to clean up and we're minky.com And how much do you want for it and like, how much you will give me for it. And long story short, that's how I bought my big holiday to Australia.
Gert Franz 34: 50
Mark Drew 33:39
Thank you. Thank you. Sorry.
Michaela Light 34:58
I got another audience question.Gert Fraz 35:00
Any more questions from the audience? Yes, there is one.
Charlie Arehart 35:09
While they work on that question, iIf you want a Yorkshire accent, that's Mike O'Brien. Right.
Michaela Light 35:12
Yeah. I think he’s from Lancashire.
Charlie Arehart 35:16
You've talked to Mike. That's the sound.
Gert Franz 35:18
Okay. Question from the audience. And David Yeah.
Question from the Audience 35:22
Right. So tabs or spaces. And and for Ben, especially, what about whitespace?
Ben Nadel 35:30
I mean, tabs, preferably followed by about four or five returns. And you're good. That's right.
Gert Franz 35:37
And a few comments, you know, you know, the problem is that every time that I open up Mark Drew's source files that are full of spaces, and I go. And then I said…
Mark Drew 35:53
Before Zac’s answers, the wait for the microphone, I just like to make a point. And a serious point to this. I know, this is a kind of jerky question. That happens. And it's always a different preference with with the audience. So let's, let's put it to the test. And I'll have a points to make about this. Put your arms up if you want to tabs. Put your arms up into spaces.
Michaela Light 36:15
We had about 95% tabs.
Mark Drew 36:19
So it doesn't matter. It should be whatever you commit, it should be in the style that you want. And it should be formatted. So that whatever you check out is always consistent.
No, there's a good reason because when Lucee compiles bytecode, if you got spaces, it gets compiled into bytecode. So spaces, your your every term is going to be three characters more in your memory use of the JVM.
But this is what I mean, it's like that's a config in my linter that when you commit your 50, your tabs and multiple carriage returns, it gets converted into one space or whatever. And when you pull it out, upgrade or downgrade, the only thing that speaks for spaces is something like Bitbucket, where you for example, see kind of not everything lining up properly because the tabs
Yeah, so it's bits, buckets fault, right? Yeah, definitely. As a DevOps engineer. Yeah. Everything is a bucket. Yeah. Yeah, it is a setting. Absolutely. But to me, I always loved doing tabs, because I'm just too lazy to line everything. That's places. That's me. Anyway.
Any more questions? Come on, you had enough time to think. Mikayla, do you have any more questions?
Michaela Light 37:39
I have a whole page full of questions. So
Mark Drew 37:41
Laurie, nice. What was the audience thinks or something else? Yeah,
Michaela Light 37:45
While they think one because I know I'm happy to prioritize the audience questions over my questions. I'd like to hear a bit more about the fastest startup and how much memory that Lucee 6 is using and I'm what are the engineering challenges we're in that?
Gert Franz 38:02
Hang on, we have a special guest tonight, Zac.
Maybe just turn it a little bit, because, you know, the thing is, I happen to use a Lucee for a week. Sorry to say, but Zac knows way more about this than I do.
So let me just introduce that for the audience at home because they may not know who the heck he is. He's the I believe the community manager and release manager for Lucee. And we had I prefer triage, the triage nurse for issues. And I'll put a link in the notes. I did an interview with Zach a few months back on what was coming up in Lucee 6. So he's
Mark Drew 38:48
at with us we like to say that was one year ago.
A year ago. Really? Yes. And I said it was coming out in August. Yeah.
Hang on. You didn't say the year,
Zac Spitzer 39:08
So yeah, Lucee 6 is a lot of the things we cut out was for example, Lucee is old enough to supports Adobe Flash and swift files. So when you deploy it was rolling out support for Flash files and all this other stuff. It's so old that there is a lot of libraries in Lizzie five which we use to actually make Java work because misura to work around things like Java didn't support so we've ripped out I think about 10 or 20 Java libraries out of it. We tried to shrink it down at the same time we upgraded all the libraries in Lucee 6 so actually the distribution got bigger. But we're going to be ripping out the Lucee dialect in 6.1. So six is basically get the thing out the door because it would kill me. Alex has been everyone's been putting pressure on the get this out the door, we 6.1, we've got a lot of performance improvements, we're going to use less memory, we're going to be even faster. And we're going to be better. As I did a lot of work with Mark, on deployment sort of stuff, so we did all the config import work with the 538-539-5310. And this testing this stuff is really painful. Mike and I work through stuff. And then you know, I feel really sorry for Michelle, our lead developer who I don't know where he is, but he should be here. We have been hustling smarter. But we he's done such an amazing job. And I think Misha is the unsung hero. I'm pretty much the more public face of Lucee these days. But Misha is, you know, the core of the project. He's the guy who started it. I don't know if people know. But Mitch, his background was he's a car mechanic, right. And he's one of the most brilliant Java developers I've ever met.
That's true. When I met him in 2000, that's when we first met. He was a dev for five years or so been before he was a car mechanic. And that's why all of his analogies are always having to do with cars.
There's a couple of awesome, there's one young person here, so yay.
Michaela Light 42:47
So Well, on that point of bringing younger developers in, I just wanted to give a shout out to autists with their into the box conference, I think they sponsored five students to from high school or college to come to into the box. And I was talking to Rakesh to Kishore from Adobe, and they're going to be sponsoring I believe 50 students to go to CF summit in Las Vegas. So you've heard it here first at CF camp. That was announced on a podcast interview I did did with him, but it hasn't published yet. So you're the first to know that so great move there to get new fresh blood into it. And I you know, maybe future CF camps can have more younger people come to us lots of young people in Germany, so
Mark Drew 43:37
well will sponsor some young people next year mission will also well suppose I will personally sponsor like two tickets for students.
Michaela Light 43:47
Are you going to sell some domains to fund this or?
Zac Spitzer 43:55
Yes. So I'm back on Lucee 6. One thing, which I'd love everyone to do is we we really are a community driven project. Okay. We are a very small dev team, we work really hard, but what you need at the moment is we've got the release candidate out the door. We need people to go out and test.
Yes. So So if we wanted to just how fast to start. So what how, what should we expect? Which was already McHale's question, it should just work about how fast I mean,
how fast well, okay, I'll admit that said that he wanted one second four years ago, but Moore's law makes it look easier. Yeah. But I'm not sure. When you do Lucee enable Lucee warm up with a Docker image. It should start in maybe half a second, depending on your platform. Wow.
Michaela Light 44:52
Now, just explain what warm up is to people who haven't come across that before I get intuitively what you mean.
Zac Spitzer 44:59
When you install Lucee it has to deploy goes and creates the server context and all the file system because basically we install Lucee, it's on top of Tomcat or on command box has to expand all the files out on the file system. You know, configure. And basically what it does is if you have a Docker image, you can say, Okay, here's my configured Docker image, fire up startup, and then exit. So that when you then start the Docker image, it's all pre installed, it's on disk, it's ready to go and just goes, snap. Because you know, on your laptop, Lucee starts really fast Up Your installers. So it's exactly the same concept of I've installed it and I boot my laptop and you know, you'll have to start somewhere immediately.
Charlie Arehart 45:39
And then No, I just wanted to follow up that in addition to your stressing people should test. One thing is that tomorrow, you'll be doing a presentation on contributing. It's called Hacking loosely, but it's about contributing and how easily people can contribute. And that's a great message to get out. And then you guys made a comment during the keynote. And it was kind of a throwaway towards the end. But it's another one where it's stressing is that, you know, there is a need of contribution. It's not something that people do, you know, solely like as a full time job. It's can volunteer efforts,
Zac Spitzer 46:16
I get paid one day a week to work on Lucee, one day, a little bit more because I work at pixelate, and Alex supports me and
Charlie Arehart 46:22
but that payment comes from people contributing and there's, and you guys shared that, you know, if people would just contribute even several dollars a month, it's like a Netflix account. And I just wonder if there's maybe something you'd come up with it would be something like something that would motivate people to say, hey, I want to do it. Or to give them something?
Zac Spitzer 46:44
Give people no fuck off. We provide a great fucking software. Yeah, people go and spend $50,000 a year on Adobe license to go, Oh, we're gonna move to Lucee because it's free? Well,
Gert Franz 47:02
Well, like yes. But on the other hand, you know, the thing is, this also should make you proud to be part of something. I know it's not easy. But also when you're actually having an buying a proprietary license, then you're entitled to expect something for that money. Right? Yeah. But yeah, but in this case, when it gets case you're not sorry. At the moment, we can get everyone a full refund. If it doesn't work. Yes, yeah. So in this case, you have an open source license, which is for free, and you make money off of it. So the only thing that we hope for in exchange is please just contribute and test.
Mark Drew 47:35
I mean, it's not that odd. There's a lot of software out there that I've had, peer ref is one of them. If anyone does any kind of artists who work you've got whatever the ad software on there, whatever you download, it just says like, why don't you donate some money because like, you're getting something out of this, you. You're either running a multi international company, one free software, or you're doing your hobby project, your being able to do something. Maybe it's just a user interface fact of just saying, hey, how much do you want to give for this download? Right? Zero, okay, you can do zero, this is a UX issue, more than anything, because it's not a guilt issue. People will be people will go for the hey, I can click download, click Download. But if you just say, would, we like to contribute to the development of it? And that's not saying, Okay, now you give us money. Now, we have to give you hours of support and come around your house and give you a back massage. It's just like, you know, just
Zac Spitzer 48:37
I’ll give you an example. For example, remember, log for J? Yeah. Okay, who's got government clients? Who's got corporate clients who turn around and said, Are you logged for J free? Are you running latest version log for j, we spent three months doing all the work, we killed ourselves getting out that door, so that you could do that. And it'd be really nice that we supported the project to do that. And you guys are getting, if we had more support, we could have been more responsive. Okay, but there's two guys, three guys working on this a couple days a week?
Gert Franz 49:12
Yes. So it's always not easy. When you're having an open source company. It's absolutely like that, and we don't, we don't expect you to help at all. It's not important. It is helping us and it's helping you by getting software out the door a little easier and a little faster. But it's definitely something you don't have to do. So it's all voluntary and all free. And we're just happy if you help. That's all.
Charlie Arehart 49:37
And that's all I was getting at is that, you know, and by the way, his response to me wasn't really to me. We had dinner last night. Yeah. He's not telling me to. But, but the concept is point. And I was just trying to say that I'll talk to some other people today who and hearing that discussion. That was yeah, I've never really been motivated. I've been shown something I should do to control CBT and some stocks people were talking about was maybe in the admin it says something or maybe when you download it, it says something or like you said user experience, or it's saying there may be something that could be done. That could be a little more. Hey, be aware, because I've always been surprised every
Mark Drew 50:15
single release suit every single release notes page for Lucee, which I spend, yeah, who reasonably so it's right. I spent a couple of hours compiling them, right. But it might just say, Oh,
Charlie Arehart 50:27
there you go. And that's all I was trying to say is that there's, there's opportunities, I think, you know, or even what about Patreon? You know, there's just something about the way Patreon works that might reach people. Definitely.
Mark Drew 50:39
Yeah. To carry on your second onto myself and get all the credit for it. Yeah, I will do so. Yeah. So Patreon would be a great way of doing it. If you're doing your release notes, and all of that you get access to the bills, this is exactly the Patriot model. For all that, Hey, you want you want to get access to a build a month early than anybody else? There you go. This is to patrons, subscribers. And that's on a low level, and then you can go increase all the way up to the corporate level, because then that's charged your credit card.
Charlie Arehart 51:20
Could be nothing but the software but people would go Oh, yeah, I want to contribute. And you would think well, they already know, open collective. Come on. It's obvious, but I'm saying I've talked to people and it's not obvious to them.
Mark Drew 51:32
The other classic example is is like I will only run stable builds in production, but I won't test the beta builds. Well, you know, catch 22 and that it helps us It helps us definitely if you test earlier. Okay, good. Mikayla.
Michaela Light 51:48
Yeah, I just I mean, I've written a lot on this topic. A lot of my CF live book is around, how can we help ColdFusion be more alive, and that's part of this. And so I just want to echo out, you know, there are different ways different people contribute, some people might do a pull request on the code, other people that codes a bit beyond them, but they could do look at improve the documentation, and, you know, fix little errors and grammar mistakes or add examples. Other people, maybe they work a company that could have a support contract with Lucee Association and contribute that way or, or pay to have features added, which obviously pays, you know, Gert, and Zach and the other folks who work on the code. And then as you were saying, you can let me just finish this up, Mark, and then I'll come to you. You can test out releases. And then the final thing I think, you know, no one here mentioned is you can evangelize Lucee, you know, blog about it post on your social media, tell your programming buddies, hey, this is cool, open source version of ColdFusion. Because in my experience talking with CTOs and CIOs, a lot of them don't even know there's an open source version of ColdFusion. They're stuck in the mentality of CF nine. I know Lucee existed back then. But it was a little kind of different. It was Railo. Right? Rylo or however you pronounce it. And so just getting the word out, because so many people just have a false view of, of ColdFusion and Lucee and don't understand how modern language in an ecosystem it has. So, Mr. Drew, you were keen to?
Mark Drew 53:28
Well, you had many points. And the way our do is break down, break that down by market. And a number of people like there's only so many CTOs that you can sell to and getting to them. It's very expensive, as we know, by by the cost of adverts in computer weekly, and CTO monthly or whatever the magazine they read, right. But the fact that you look at the number of downloads of Lucee, if you look how many downloads? I mean, I don't know.
Zac Spitzer 54:00
I think Forge box has about 900,000 downloads as Lucee.
Mark Drew 54:06
Yeah, exactly. So you got 900,000 downloads of Lucee, if you just put us more traction on that, well photobooks is different because that's automated and stuff like that. But if you go to the Lucee website over here, click to download Lucee on the downloads dot lucid or the old website. When you do that on a pop up comes up. Like I don't know how many downloads you get from that but if you if you had that funding then you can do everything else. A lot of the things that you say that I want every commercial company is trying to is the attention to every commercial company is trying to attract being able to say we have a modern version of CFML or or just it's this programming language called Lucee doesn't matter. Whatever CFML is doesn't matter. For a director to say that has to have be driven a lot by develop a buy in. Either is either developer buying bottom up or is going to be top down for CTO down, CTO down is super expensive because golf courses and our CTO is not here, but we're having a conversation the other day is, a lot of people are trying to get AI, the CTO to get eyes on on their product. Like, it's an it's expensive, and they'll spend a big money, that's a very difficult thing to actually do, no matter that the validity of the product correctly. I mean, we've been in this in this business long enough. So the way that we can do is bottom up, I think that's the only way to do it. If we're going to get funded from the bottom up, once you start saying it costs a little bit of money, but therefore, weirdly enough, asking for regular money gives a little more value to the product. Right? If it's just freeze, whatever is a click download, it doesn't matter. But saying, Hey, you would like to become part of our Patriot.
Gert Franz 55:55
And regarding bottom up, what I have experienced over the last 20 years, yes, loose is 20 years old, or Rylo. Is that from bottom up is way more? Well, consistent. It lasts longer. Because you know, the developers believe in you. And eventually they will convince the managers. But anyway, since you were talking about your book before, I have another question. Great segue
Michaela Light 56:23
You could be a TV host, I think in a future career.
Gert Franz 56:29
Well, I tried, but they turned me down. You know, my accent is weird. But anyway,
Michaela Light 56:34
I suppose it's your third language.
Gert Franz 56:37
There you go. Nice segue there. Thank you.
Michaela Light 56:41
What's the question to the audience to win a book?
Gert Franz 56:44
Michaela Light 57:38
I'm just curious where ASP came in, in that age thing. If you happen to know?
Gert Franz 57:43
I think it was later than that. Because I s got into the game, you know, as usual, Microsoft's a little late in the game, I guess in 97.
Charlie Arehart 57:53
Did you ever hear the story? I'd heard a story that as that Microsoft talked to a lawyer about acquiring Superman. I did be what would be ASP. I did see if they should have could have been what might have
Michaela Light 58:07
Wow. But then we'd have ColdFusion.net Right now, and I'm not sure that necessarily what
Mark Drew 58:17
The audience has gone crazy for the ColdFusion. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work with Mac. So any more questions in the audience? To be fair, Mark had fusion objects, which was right, right at the time. So I thought it was the same stuff at the time. It was not. I mean, it's not.
Michaela Light 58:46
Yes. Let's go on. I heard this something called single context mode in Lucee 6. What the heck does single context even mean?
Zac Spitzer 58:55
So if you've ever logged into Lucia administrator, previously, you've always had a server and a web context. It's a bit like, conceptually, it's a bit like CSS. So in Lucia, you have a server context, which is your base configuration. And then with the web context, that's your web configuration. So if you've got different websites back in the day, we used to run multiple websites on one server these days in
Mark Drew 59:19
This, this was very much so this is very geared towards ISPs. So let's let's let's go back, you have to understand that the context that we're Lucee came from before going, thinking that we've gone back, we're going forward for very good reason. Lucee was aimed at simplifying the life of hosting companies. So what they could say is like all for the server, you had a number of things that you could do. And then for each website, no application, you could lock it down specifically for them, or do very specific settings for them. So for example, Zach's website zach.com, the place for the bearded people would have one have, you know its own DSN more true.com, whoever has that will have a database to my blog, right? And Gert de france.ch would have a date data source to his own thing and everything locked down because you can't trust gut with any access to Java. Right? So it means that you can separate out the gut into the configuration very nicely. This is really great, apart from as time has has moved on. We now get to the point that that's very valid and very useful feature, but not in all situations. Compared to containers, right. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah. So for example, now in the modern world, we got this idea of containers, which are a single context, you only have one website, and you're not hosting 50 websites. In one container,
Zac Spitzer 1:00:56
I think the critical thing to explain to people is, you know what an application dot CFC is when an application is in a subdirectory, or the root directory of an application. So it loosely it's a bit like with CSS, you had the server configuration, the web configuration, the application dot c, c configuration, the three tiers, yes, now with LISI six, you can have two.
Mark Drew 1:01:17
So you have the server and the which ColdFusion does, but to cohesion detriment, they're not. And by the way, like Charlie's gonna tell me how wrong I am. Cohesion hasn't been like really geared towards very light containerization I might be wrong, I'm wrong.
Charlie Arehart 1:01:35
Say this earlier, but I did my tongue. I just had my opportunity. So just to be clear, so you have 2021 did reduce a core engine of all hitting 140 Meng, that starts up in several seconds. And with Docker image as well, the Docker images are all very small, but you know, you're not paying attention. I understand. I understand how much the How much does it cost per call, or there is? Well, it's free for development, free for development. But yes, it is. Price.
Mark Drew 1:02:09
I mean, the price doesn't matter because you know, humans actually cost a lot more than than software generally apart from a WCF they probably costs more than humans. But the whole point is it like the cost the monetary costs for for that is not important. But like for example, we started at 900 containers how much would that cost us a lot of money and reduction. Yeah, exactly. But but that's regardless, the whole point for the single context is that we need to start it up we need to have one config be done with
Zac Spitzer 1:02:42
It simple to understand if you if you're a new ColdFusion developer you go and download Lucee 6 you install it you have a single context because most Okay, audience question who is confused by the Lucee server and web admins? Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. Okay,
so I was to when I started I had no idea I do I know it now. But yeah, it's I've had well, we first met in Crown casino in Melbourne, I think in 98. When crown casino at a ColdFusion conference, I think in 98, or 99 I'm not sure.
Michaela Light 1:03:19
You mean D X down under or something or some?
Zac Spitzer 1:03:23
Yeah. Because I mean, this is my first coffee should conference since 2006.
Gert Franz 1:03:33
Oh, my God. What? Oh my God. You see Lucee can't afford sending everyone Oh, good. Oh, please contribute. Oh, good. Anyway, go ahead. Um,
Michaela Light 1:03:44
I hear that in Lucee 6. You've made some of the CFML defaults smarter. Can anyone speak to that?
Gert Franz 1:03:53
Michaela Light 1:03:54
I apparently CF location add token. Now the default me for example,
Gert Franz 1:04:00
I understood we make some CF folks tart smarter and
Michaela Light 1:04:06
Well that too, but I meant the defaults in the language.
Gert Franz 1:04:10
Defaults. Thank you. Thank you. And they are breaking changes some some of those are breaking changes. But one of the things that always I always hated was save location. And you always had to do a token. Now Lucee, you could always do that by doing something like this that tag that location that add token equals no in the Application CFc and that will have validated for everything so you wouldn't have to add it anymore. You can do overrides for anytime, anytime. A defaults are so what we do currently is that we use the default data source but that's something that I guess ColdFusion does as well. But that is something that I always loved that for any tag and Lucee you can set defaults in the Application CFc so that you can omit them later on. Right, like, for example, setting some server attributes for CF male tag or for the, for the query tag or whatever, which is really very helpful. What was the breaking change?
Zac Spitzer 1:05:11
Okay, so anyone at home who's listening, and here are the audience, we have an epic on our Jira, which break lists all the breaking changes for six ones we've implemented and once we want to do,
Mark Drew 01:05:22
You should put that onto the readme of the Patreon that we're okay.
Zac Spitzer 01:05:33
Mark Drew 01:06:11
Britex is going to be a lot happier.
Zac Spitzer 01:06:14
And we have a peek very happy with this. We also want you to feedback, okay, because CFML is actually a growing live living language. And people need to talk to it. Like say, why are we doing this, like, for example, Lucee 6, I talked about developer experience. We've got an example get temp file when you're working with images in ColdFusion. The image tags, look at the file extension, when you get a temp file previously, it's always dot temp, with Luce 6. And I think 538 onwards, you can actually say a third file parameter to get temp file, say I want a PNG file, and you get a temp PNG file, you can go and work with it. You know, it's a bit of boilerplate. But you know, every time I have to go off and write that, you know, get Tim file and PNG do all this delete the temp file and stuff like that i screen. So I've gone off and change that. It's about making these little things simpler. We were talking with Louis from what is today about wire bots. Now at the moment, we do create objects you have they have to we have to go and do extra work for dependency injection. So we're looking at maybe adding in a listener for create objects so we can do automatic dependency dependency injection. Okay. It's it's so simple. But
Gert Franz 1:07:30
I actually had a question, Ben, what version are you on? On Lucee?
Ben Nadel 1:07:35
I think I'm on 5.4 Point memory. Three mics? No, no, no, I'm on like, 5.3 point. Maybe? A little bit lower. Yeah. I think the last time we upgraded was maybe a year ago
Gert Franz 1:07:53
So I don't know what but yes, I mean, for somebody like envision it's not easy.
Ben Nadel 1:07:59
You know, the problem is, is the number of people working on ColdFusion in my company is very small this guy and upgrading the Lucee language in the Docker file. It's the first line. So when I do that, everything else really compiles. And there's all kinds of other stuff that I'm it's not really my skill set. I am all about manual testing. That's correct. But,
Mark Drew 1:08:24
But about testing the whole stack and everybody else's stack. And every other.
Ben Nadel 1:08:31
You just click around for a little while. I don't know. Upload some files, it works. Awesome.
Charlie Arehart 1:08:43
Once you were sending in Nolan's talk today, and you were very impressed.
Ben Nadel 1:08:46
I'm getting closer, you're getting closer every day,
Charlie Arehart 1:08:48
he did a talk on testing. And it wasn't
Ben Nadel 1:08:51
very impressed the file a feature request right now. So you have local mode at the function level. Right? Where are you have it at the component level? Fine. Are you sure? Are you sure?
Gert Franz 1:09:04
I just solved it within five seconds. Yes, it is available on Kabul. I haven't. I would like to.
I want it to be
Okay, the feature was invalid. Nope. No fix. Sorry. Yeah, well, I agree as well. So but I'm pretty sure it's working. But hang on. I'm pretty sure it's working. There is definitely a setting in the admin which way you can turn on Local Motors revenue.
Ben Nadel 1:09:32
So that's the problem is I'd love to turn it on. But I can't do it for the whole application because we have code that leans on the fact that setting things stores
Mark Drew 1:09:43
Well, I hate Local mode. I don't think it should be allowed and loosen or any other language.
He said that deep sexy voice.
Remove the local mode. Why? slowly remove the local mode. But anyway, figured out, I want what I want is like losing weight. I think for loss const mark just for the audience, we need to explain that the local mode, if you, for example, have a C function, you add the attribute, local mode equals true. Any variable that you introduced that has not been known before, will be automatically set into the local scope. So you don't have to bother them. They don't have to bog them instead of x. Nice for very lazy developers and safety. It's a safety feature. I agree. It's a safety feature. Oh, we have an issue. Let's just turn on local mode. Oh, the issue is gone. We have no idea why. But oh, you have tests, you know, manual, click around.
Ben Nadel 1:10:48
Test don't solve this problem. Because it's it's data that's leaked out and you
Gert Franz 1:10:53
test? Yeah. And at least at least when we introduced this local modes that was in OC five or four or five, and it? I don't know, it was available for components. So I don't know why it vanished.
Like tag islands. Yes. Bucket, we do it. There are side effects. You are a developer, you decide what you do?
No, true. I agree. It is a good feature. But as far as I remember, it was still part of the component definition. But anyway, we'll figure it out. And we'll let you know. We're going to remove it.
Charlie Arehart 1:11:29
And say that for the sake of the Adobe folks, you know, now you can see why they can't just drop stuff. There's always these debates back and forth. And we don't ever see that within the CF Adobe community. It's all behind the scenes.
Mark Drew 1:11:43
It's all behind the scenes, private forums and stuff. Yeah, right. I have I have a very simple feature request. Really simple. Okay. And gardeners might know what I'm talking about is a CF timer tag. I want to put that to a variable. Is it solved in five SAT? No, that like main feature of Lucee 6? What did you mess around with all the other sounds?
Charlie Arehart 1:12:07
I'm out? No. Timer timer.
Mark Drew 1:12:11
Hey, because before it's like outputting, somewhere, but I want it in a variable I want a time. So hang on, hang on.
For everyone that they know what it is, you're gonna have a tag called see if timer open and close tag. And it just tells you if you have for example, type equals outline, just displays the box and whatever is in that box has taken x amount of milliseconds. It puts it somewhere silly. We can't use it. Yeah, well, it did that in five, three in in our in six, it returns the variable. Now that's the delete all your machines upgrade to six.
Mark Drew 1:12:58
but I still trade that or not, don't worry about Local Motors.
Gert Franz 1:13:03
I have another question for Ben. Then what is your favorite Lucee feature? If you think about it.
Ben Nadel 1:13:15
Say well, yeah, well, of course. I mean, that's great. I mean, I've fallen in love with Tag islands because I write a script for everything except CF query. And it's it's lovely to be able to just dive into that. It's fantastic.Gert Franz 1:13:30
Well, Misha, uses CF query the query tag and scripts as well. And checks
Ben Nadel 1:13:37
which side? That seems more confusing to me personally, but but okay. Okay. Because then in their mind in their mind. I love that and I love
Mark Drew 1:13:50
how expensive it is.Ben Nadel 01:13:53
Yeah. I just know how fast is it? Oh, no patron? It's super fast. That's been it's just, I don't know, coefficients. Amazing. I don't know if it's hard to narrow it down.
Mark Drew 01:14:09
I have a question actually, which Michaela might might disagree with? Because which, which, to you, Ben? And you can join in jelly? To which level should Lucee diverge from Adobe? Right? Because there is this this this? One train of thought saying, oh, Lucee's open source version of ColdFusion. It should maintain compatibility. And there are there are some points about it, but from a free market point of view that really stifles innovation, like if they wanted to do something crazy, like, you know, like, instead of flash, we did SVG. remoting I don't know. Right? Like, okay.
Zac Spitzer 01:14:54
I'll turn the question around. I like I liked the idea what you want us to break. Was that So we can diverge, and we can do our own stuff. And we've been doing that for a long time. Is there stuff you'd like to break compatibility compatibility with?
Mark Drew 1:15:07
I, the reason I'm asking to Ben and Charlie is because I don't use Adobe ColdFusion. So that I don't really know what we'll be breaking with. But I do hear people going, Oh, well, that will break compatibility is like, to me, I don't care, like I use Lucee is, is not like I'm a CFML developer. And I use both and my day to day is never touches Adobe,
Zac Spitzer 01:15:31
I had a story last year about someone who picked up a ColdFusion application, which I think was 15 or 20 years old. And switch to Lucee latest version, it just worked. So that backwards compatibility is super important. Like Eagle wanted to turn on localhost by default, right?
Now this one person No, but this is really
Michaela Light 1:15:51
pretty common Mark, I will say,
Zac Spitzer 1:15:55
I think there's so much legacy ColdFusion. It's 20. How long, 25 years old, 25, more
Gert Franz 1:16:04
28 years old, and Lucee is 20 years old, or Rylo. Lucee is 20 years old. I think also that the compatibility to confusion is really one of the biggest selling points to losing. On losing. And you just switch your code. And you have that experience that everything just runs. That's awesome. Hang on. There's a question from the audience. Exactly.
Question from the Audience 1:16:31
It's not really a question. It's more a comment on on what we're saying. And that is you can have new features in Lucee that don't break compatibility with with ColdFusion. See, if Adobe ColdFusion we can add new things just because a WS in support. That doesn't mean you can't just migrate directly to Lucee. So let's have new features
Mark Drew 1:16:55
now. But that doesn't mean features. If they hit things don't have feedback. But they hit things or queries, for example, right? If you want to do something like simple example, CF loop should have instead of a query string, you'd have query object, right? See if query query equals hash, and in the query, right, that makes sense, that makes it consistent. Right? I personally would go like, why is this? You know, different or fails? Right? Yes, at
that we just had listeners to see a query it is as confused as Adobe coefficient. Well,
Gert Franz 1:17:39
not yet. But you know, we had, we had I have a very funny anecdote, at least from my point of view, it's and it's a funny anecdote. You know, Misha, and I were talking about the member functions 10 years ago. And we introduced those inner member functions, what they do, instead of having array append, you have array dot append. And I remember Misha saying, well, let's call the member functions. And I thought, no, actually, they're type methods. So we shouldn't call them member functions, because it has nothing to do with it's not a member, I don't see a member. So anyway, said, Okay, let's go with it. Let's release Lucee for five with member functions. And then we went to the Adobe keynote somewhere. And Adobe, fortunately, adopted that concept. And there's a, here are the new member functions, there goes the name, right. So I was way too late for that. So eventually, once we introduced something which is maybe smart enough, there'll be will follow us, they're definitely not forced to do so because they're doing a good pretty good job. So it's more or less a game. It's kind of a ping pong game between Adobe and Lucee, where they introduce something which is nice, we introduced something which is nice and I hope that we can bring both of the engines forward one being open source the other just not.
Charlie Arehart 1:18:59
Well, I was just gonna say that's what I was getting at earlier in my one of my first comments is that with that keynote this morning, it really feels like this is the screw it, we're just going forward, release, you know, and I understand that and it goes to your point, it's like you can move forward on things that seemingly can't be implemented for whatever reason, or as you said, you can hope that they'll see it and adopt it and there's more of it than people may realize because again, if you're just wholesale loosely, you don't pay attention but you know, I'm doing hidden gems in every release and so I'm aware of what's changing and sometimes I think see things coming that are new in Lucien ago was he has been doing that for a while. But you know, who cares if you're in Lucee, you don't care. You just want to know that it works and Lucee? So there's a lot of that back and forth and back and forth.
Gert Franz 1:19:45
Yeah, but there's one thing we from Lucee hope that Adobe follows Adobe doesn't hope that we follow. Oh, mean in general. Yeah. In general. Yes.
Charlie Arehart 1:19:55
But it absolutely goes both ways. Yeah.
Zac Spitzer 1:20:00
I want to shout out to Mark who is my contemporary Adobe Mark tecarta. We have a good working relationship. And we're trying to coordinate and we basically look at each other each other's doing, we've got feedback, there's been some, there's been some big changes in the Adobe team. Lately, they're trying to actually really improve their processes. And I look forward to a productive working relationship with both of us, because I'll give you an example Android, you have competing browser engines, and web browser and Android is great. Safari is a trainwreck on iOS. We make each other better, you know, we look at each other what we're doing we wait, you know, it's a bit of competition is good.
Mark Drew 1:20:44
Yeah. I mean, yes, I Yes. And I would also add that without talking about politics amongst friends, because no one was that a lot of politics both in the UK and the US have got this idea of what you got, you got your base, they're going to vote for you, whatever, right? They're going to use Adobe, they're going to use those whatever I'm on the Lucee team because I'm gonna use Lucee whatever's the snow swaying me because that's, that's my career. But you have a loud, smaller minority that is using both and doing that and they're actually quite loud compared to the different bases. There's a lot of people using handovers here I have zero interest in Lucee, there's a lot of people using Lucee, just looking at what the Lucia releases are doing, right. And as in politics, and as in this kind of thing. You got quite a lot of people that have got and allowed because they happen to be Ben Adele, and they they are the internet. Or Charlie Earhart or somebody, and I don't mean this in a negative way, or are just loud on the internet anyway, that are using both and and talking with the theoretical questions like what should Lucee do? And like, it doesn't matter? Because if it does something, people will use it right. And those are kind of quite loud vocal, we are open every time we do something we think about compatibility and how it works. Have aquestion from the audience? Again, not so we have a question from the audience.
A question from the Audience 1:22:24
Again, not so much a question. But another comment because our code base is going back some 20 years. I think there's not a single line in there that's actually dating back 20 years, but it has evolved over that time. And of course, we started off with ColdFusion. We're now in Lucee and backwards compatibility is one thing that's really has been an asset for us. But we've solved those problems, obviously. Now, there shouldn't be any code base. Now. That's still some CF eight stuff. So
Mark Drew 1:23:01
this live code like surely like yeah, good managers have a ColdFusion, like
one aspect, but having having a language that has two different kinds of perspectives as alternatives. Like one one very enterprising, the Adobe way. And one completely open source. This serves a double purpose in in that way that it's not only backwards compatibility, not everything is compatible. There are some ideas in confusion, which weren't very good. CF Ajax, for example. Yeah, that's not mentioned,
Mark Drew 1:23:45
clients yet. See of clients. We do have
contacts? Well, forcibly. So because we use some third party software that's not developed on ColdFusion. But another language that starts with P, which we don't mention yet. But that's not not an experience you have as a developer with a limited resources. Every one two years, we have to do some stuff to change our development based on this one, because it's not it will develop in an enterprising kind of way. So they don't worry about backwards compatibility. They design the language with Well, let's let's do this. Let's have no escape something real string, whatever. Okay. Yeah. And it's, the language is a train wreck. And they see the train wreck and they will say, well, let's let's do this
Mark Drew 1:24:51
better saying Angular. You just say Angular.
Angular 123, 122 is exactly my point. I'm on woo woo now. Because of this a while won't touch Angular any time again. So having this enterprise mindset and actually you two talking, that's that's really a big boon to the language itself a real big change. So having a common user base is really essential. And having the enterprise and the open source thinking in one vote that's that's really great. I don't think any other any other environment? Well, as you know,
Mark Drew 1:25:31
what I have to say, in our community, let's be blunt and honest, is not really that big. So it would be not very beneficial if we would fight each other, and the small community. I have a question to you, Michaela. Do you? Do you use Lucee? Yes, we
I do. team does.
Michaela Light 1:25:55
Five, something or another? I don't know. I don't keep tracking numbers. And whatever the latest 5.91 is,
Gert Franz 1:26:03
And how was your transition?
Michaela Light 1:26:07
Lucee or something else?
Mark Drew 1:26:11Very good.
Michaela Light 1:26:12
I mean, you're very forward as an interviewer Gert. You know, I think you should be on TV. You're saying Hang on. From ACF to Lucee. Yeah, well, we've done that for quite a lot of clients. And sometimes it goes straightforward. Other times, as you know, they're using PDF stuff or you have to, you know, there's other things in there that need to be changed out for libraries. So sometimes some people write great code 20 years ago, other people's 20 year old codes, not quite so great,
Mark Drew 1:26:45
wonderful disappointments in Adobe buying Macromedia. ColdFusion was an amazing promise of being able to have the power of Photoshop in a scripting language, but they gave the power of PDF instead. Well, yeah, and even though I'm by the way, this is gonna be just hitting on ColdFusion. I thought it was like I remember when like Adobe or buying ColdFusion has gone. Great. Now we got Photoshop and scripted Photoshop, and right, now you're gonna get PDF. One,
Michaela Light 1:27:24
Adobe is a very big company, and they have many products they had last time I counted, it was over 50, it's probably way more than that now. And they're like little fiefdoms. It's not like one kingdom with a king at Adobe, they've got little, little fiefdoms, each product has its own little champions and what have you, it's, it's not as whatever rational as you might think.
Ben Nadel 1:27:48
I was just gonna say it's, I think most of us sort of build stuff for our own use. And it's another thing to consider people like, or to solutions or other people who are building community products where they can't pick and choose necessarily the type of customers that they want to work with. So for them, and their business model, being able to serve the most people means having a much more compatible language, or, you know, they can't, then they also can't introduce the cutting edge stuff that only one of the languages can take advantage of.
Zac Spitzer 1:28:20
One of the big differences, I think, with Lucee versus Adobe is that all the core team and Lucee are all part time, Lucee developers on the core, the rest of time, we're actually building apps on Lucee. So we're experiencing the product, we're using the product, we dogfooding the product.
Gert Franz 1:28:40
You know, RYLA was always designed to be a language from developers for developers was from the day from day one. Whenever you know, at the beginning, we all wear T shirts, so we never wear polo shirts. So we always intended to impress the developers to share. I know that was error number number one, because we would have been way more successful if we targeted the managers, and not just the developers. But to us, it was just a very great experience over the last 20 years. And it paid off in the end, but still, it took a lot of perseverance.
Charlie Arehart 1:29:19
Anyway. So that's very important to be you know, eating your own dog food and, and to have come from that environment. I want to shout out to David Tattersall here in the front row from integral, the fusion reactor guys moving fusion reactor because they needed a tool. They were doing CFML apps 20 years ago and needed a better monitoring tool. There wasn't anything so they built fusion reactor, and they've always had that, you know, core understanding of, we're one of you, we're building a tool to solve your problems. And so it's great. Thank you for that.
Michaela Light 1:29:54
Um, one comment, I'd like to make that you know, as we know, we run this annual ColdFusion survey and one of the things I noticed is the adoption curve from older versions of Adobe ColdFusion. And older versions, Lucee, Lucee uses a much faster to go to the latest version. You know, there's very few, maybe there was, you know, 5.8 versus 5.9. But they're not that much behind that, whereas Adobe ColdFusion, there's quite a spread out curve as to older versions. Well, that
Gert Franz 1:30:23
is a simple, that's a simple equation, you know, upgrade to Lucee versus upgrade ColdFusion, the costs are more than cost. It's also the environment, right? So like, a lot of the people that are upgrading to Lucie are either a non enterprise so the barrier to upgrade something is easier, right? Then you don't have to go through compliance, you don't have to go through a whole bunch of different steps to do it. I'm talking distributed as part of that. We have QA we, we test a new version of Lucee we upgrade as an example, right? I'm just using this as an example. A company that's using ColdFusion will have to either pay for upgrades, I don't know if you meant just minor versions, which are free. Like as in like,
Michaela Light 1:31:17
those two, actually, I talked to people like they're on, you know, Adobe ColdFusion 2021. And they're on hotfix. Four, and I forget how many hotfix Charlie probably knows exactly how many hot fixes, but it's way more than four. They just have some inertia and corporate, you know, whatever, bureaucracy that gets thrown away.
Mark Drew 1:31:39
And I've noticed as businesses as they get bigger, up, you get less empowerment to do that, right? up to an enterprise. And it goes like, I've got to upgrade my upgrade, who don't have to ask about it. And then surprise us. No, then surprise us. No, no, that answer. So that's because but then instead of someone taking the empowerment that smaller company, but well, then I'll do it.
So I think I think
Michaela Light 1:32:10
partly it is that enterprise slowness. I think also the fact that Lucee has been having monthly point releases for quite a while. And people just get used to like, Oh, there's another point release, I'm just going to install it. Whereas Adobe is has been slower off the bat though they have moved to annual releases now.
Charlie Arehart 1:32:31
We'll talk about that. That's new information. A lot of people haven't heard that yet.
Michaela Light 1:32:35
Well, there are there. Adobe's moved from releasing every two years, they're now going to an annual release plan. Kishore Balakrishna revealed that on the CF live podcast, which is good and well, I, that the concern is the technology is moving so fast. I mean, I read some study that said, you know, if you take a century of inventions from 1900, to 2000, that happened again, between 2020 16, then it happened again, through 2023, which I can't quite think what the doubling period is there. And it's predicted we'll get a century of technical innovation in the next three years. Right? So and just look at the chat GPT and all the AI stuff that's being exact as an example. But that's just one examples, many technology changes happening, and it's hard to keep up.
Mark Drew 1:33:27
Well, it's not hard to keep up in the sense of it. products, the barrier to entry is cost, right? So an enterprise getting an invoice raise to i have to go to my boss, and I have to go. Hi, Kevin, I want to get 50 new licenses of ColdFusion 2019. And why because what's the difference between 2019 and 2018 or 2023 and 2022? Doesn't doesn't really matter. That's a pricing model issue. That's uh, why don't you just have a subscription model like we have with AWS?
Michaela Light 1:34:05Well, I I imagine I haven't I have, I'm just making a guess here. It's an intelligent guest. That as you know, Adobe Creative Suite is on a subscription model. And I imagine ColdFusion may go to a subscription model at that point.
Charlie Arehart 1:34:21
Well, and I'll say, because you mentioned that in passing while we weren't on the mic, but that Adobe does offer that there are people that do pay for ColdFusion on a subscription basis. So it's not offered on the website as the way to buy it. But if you approach Adobe or if they approach you some know what I'm talking about, yeah, there's a scription model.
Gert Franz 1:34:40
And, you know, let's not forget, everyone who's sitting here at this conference and sitting in front of him is actually a product of what happened in 1995 when ColdFusion was kind of released, and we built Lucee because of ColdFusion. Okay, it sucked bearing back in The days so we had to build it. And in the meantime, we're kind of the challenging Junior challenging the senior to Okay, catch up with us. Okay. And then we built some features where the features are from.
Yeah, but still, yeah, the JR with gray hair. Who is? Who does say that? Yeah, I'm sorry. Well, you see how long it took us to catch up and how now we're in this kind of ping pong game with it. But actually, in the meantime, I liked the way how things are. Because we're in a friendly relationship and an agnostic relationship where we just respect each other. And we just, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna do that. Okay, go ahead,
Mark Drew 1:35:44
People don't know. And we're gonna ditch the gut. Now, what people don't know is that there were many years that people at Adobe, were very combative against Rylo. And Lucee, I'm not going to go into that. I'm very personal on it. And it was a very big battle. Now we've got a situation where there's this cooperation between the two companies. There is we are completely different entities. As you know, I say we I'm just a supportive Rhino. Really, I say we I know. We
Michaela Light 1:36:27
Can speak on the mic?
Mark Drew 1:36:29
I wonder all my PRs ever get accepted. Now? Yeah, well, I'm just a contributor. I'm not a supporter of Lucee, per se, but but I haven't seen the challenge that we used to have with Adobe. And now that I think that's good, because now that benefits all of you guys, right? Like you as a customers of, of enterprise software, you're the customers of open source software, you're benefiting from two companies not working together, but not being antagonistic to each other. Right. But it's kind of that market forces.
Charlie Arehart 1:37:06
While we're talking history, some of you will know that the history of the paved row, paved road of Adobe, of Lucee and Rylo was on a dirt road that preceded which was blue dragon, which was a party to the hat, some No. But that was a party to that. And that wasn't like, like a lot of battles. And I could tell you, Yes, I was disinvited from Adobe MAX in 2005. Because
Michaela Light 1:37:35
I think there are a lot more friendly now. And they see the I mean, really, there is a benefit having an open source ColdFusion, I would say
Gert Franz 1:37:44
I got the final question. Regarding your book. We have three books
Michaela Light 1:37:48
Let's get the third book out there. Maybe she is held at the back somewhere.
Gert Franz 1:37:53
Please, the four of you without me. Which was the first open source CFML engine?
There you go.
Project. And, okay. Second question.
Michaela Light 1:38:12
Where, what's the answer on the first I didn't get that on there?
Mark Drew 1:38:15
We have a challenge. First, good. Good. Okay. We have a challenger here from challenger.
Charlie Arehart 1:38:21
Well, Blue Dragon was built on top of something called Tag servlet, which was originally called Tag fusion. And as far as I know, that was the first implementation of CFML. On Java, even at story time, the source? Well, that's the question. Yes, at the time, they wanted to open source it. But they got acquired by new Atlanta, and it became blue dragon.
Gert Franz 1:38:44
Thanks. Understand the thing between open to open source and it actually opens?
Charlie Arehart 1:38:49
Yes, yes. Yes, yes. Well, but remember to that Railo at first wasn't open.
Gert Franz 1:38:54
No, absolutely no. RYLA was not open source. We have commercial versions. But you're right. It was the Smiths project and where were they from?
They were from where? Nope.
Florida. Swiss Switzerland. There you go. Switzerland. So this is our search engine. So we're out NAMM? No, actually, it's to to to America to Switzerland to while you live in America. And actually it was Scottish right. Near a blue dragon is Scottish. Yeah. Okay. So Switzerland one anyway. Congratulations. Yes. So So third cook over there. Please approach me or approach Pavel later and tell him or tomorrow and tell him that you might think
Michaela Light 1:39:38
Maybe she has the books, doesn't he? Do you?
Gert Franz 1:39:41
Well, Pavel has. Okay. Cool. Okay. Thank you. So books are raffled
Charlie Arehart 1:39:46
and that's one thing mentioning Misha, I wanted to say for any of you who think about coming to CF camp, there's important distinction to note Mishi and Misha, they're two different people. One has
Gert Franz 1:39:57
a weird Swiss accent and the other one has a weird German accent. But they're both awesome. Both all right guys love them to bits. And actually I think no, I know Misha a little longer than you but you will maybe a half a year late in Munich at that beer garden meeting.
And there was a sobering night.
Michaela Light 1:40:21
I think we're coming to the end of our time here. It's getting late in Munich. You've got an early start tomorrow to be is there another day to keynote at CF camp?
Gert Franz 1:40:29
Hang on, we're just in the middle of it. No, it's all good. Okay
Michaela Light 1:40:35
Any final thoughts on Lucee 6 from the panel and any final thoughts on Lucee 6 from the audience?
Gert Franz 1:40:45
So first of all, any questions before we just do our final round.
Mike Drew 1:40:52
My final thoughts is like I'm managed to take it out for a drive yet but I have been nagging from afar and I'm so happy a lot of new features have got in the this is a really 2023 release of a CF ML Engine not really seriously like we've we've had so many engines have come out with CF mo balls CFA, Jack's stuff of us two years behind the curve. This is the first time that an engine has come out with now features features that are now and and will really change the landscape of CFML that's my thought
Zac Spitzer 1:41:41
Just everyone knows that actually the lot of stuff in fire in six which have actually been in the earlier releases of 5.3, 8, 9 and 10. And you and I did a lot of work. Rubber Ducky, on Zoom working out why things weren't working with config important lots of stuff. And I want to give a big shout out to district kid for a lot of support for Lucee. I was distracted for a year and a half. Most of the core Lucee team, Gert Misha, and they are Lucee company and it's great. And I think as an example as a corporate citizen, I work for pixelate now they also you know, look at the board there. See the companies who actually supporting Lucee, big shout out to them because they do something which coming back to this thing about sales. Alex, who's the CEO pixelate when he has a customer go during a sales call and they go like Arby's Lucee goes like, yeah, we're on the board of Lucee, we're a sponsor of Lucee, we're heavily involved in Lucee, okay, it gives you credibility in the marketplace. Because, you know, the sales process is difficult, you know,
Mark Drew 1:42:57
I've been able to say like, I literally own the ground that we're going to build this monument on, you know, like, whatever the application is going to be. If you're going to build a dotnet application, like who has a Microsoft but if you got like, I do, I owe this ground.
Charlie Arehart 1:43:21
So, in answering the question, what's great about Lucee, I would want to ask a question. I noticed there's a camera back there. Have all these sessions been recorded. So people will soon be able to watch the keynote. Watch the keynote from this morning. It was just a bunch of amazing stuff. I couldn't possibly list. What are the coolest things because there were so many cool things. You bet.
Ben Nadel 1:43:54
I don't I don't really have much to add. I'm excited to try it. That's all. Yeah, I do. I feel very actually a little bit guilty after not contributing in a proactive way. So I you know, I follow up the end of the parade, picking up everything off the floor and using it.
Gert Franz 1:44:14
You need a couple of more. You need a couple of more SEO hits on your nose if you don't have enough already. Well, how did you pay the plates? Hang on. There's a question. Do we have a microphone for the back?
Question from Audience 1:44:41
This is very quick. And I apologize. I know you guys are wrapping up. But then I would actually change your perception of what you just said. They may be doing the parade and you feel that you're sweeping the streets, but you're the one that's helping a million people behind you follow them right here. So, please, don't sell yourself short. You are an essential, essential, essential part because it community.
Thank you. That's very nice.
Gert Franz 1:45:12
You know what, what Lewis is in regards to documentation is then in terms of SEO? Yes. So regarding Lucee, I'm really very excited about it. As I said, first of all, because it's hair, that's the first thing. And second of all, because it's so fast, and it has the single mode, which is really very impressive. And it has two tags that I actually wanted, which is really good, as well. And I'm looking a lot forward to 6.1, which is hopefully filling up the gap as well with ColdFusion. We'll see performance improvements 20% performance improvements, some more some faster startup, which is already below a second. And yeah, so let's hope for it for in the fall, and Lucee is going to hit the market, I suppose in two weeks or so. Okay, so anyway, last words, use that. Um,
Zac Spitzer 1:46:16
I just want to say I love CFML. And this is my first ColdFusion conference in 17 years. Thank you, my mats is a little bit slow. And it's really great to actually meet all these people. It's put faces to names and yeah. And I can't wait to I can't wait for next CF camp. Thank you, Mishi.
Michaela Light 1:46:39
Yes, we can too Mishi for organizing this. Well, thank you, everyone on the panel, Mark, Charlie, Ben, Gert, and Zac, who is zapped into the panel and thank you audience for staying up so late in CF camp, thank you really appreciate your contributions. So all right. Thank you.